Dodge Durango Forum banner

Who wants to be a contestant on today's "Is it the BCM or the PCM" show?

2574 Views 51 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  Vice-White
So I've had a few posts about some electrical gremlins of late. I finally got some codes that stuck, and I finally tracked down a real code reader, and I have the following from what is being reported as the ABS System (Antilock brakes...Hmm). Now my voltage is just upward of 15VDC on the EVIC, and high 14's measured on an actual voltmeter and on an el-cheapo tablet-like scope. I have some questions/comments inline if anyone wants to hazard an answer/response :)

C2101-17 - Battery Voltage Too High - Current Voltage Above Threshold (Is this literally the battery and only the battery, not the alternator?)
C212A-17 - System Voltage - Circuit Voltage Above Threshold (This feels like it would be the alternator/charging system as well as the battery. Whatever voltage was on the circuit feeding the thing that was reporting the fault?)
U0100-00 - Lost Communication With ECM/PCM (Maybe this is the indicator that it's the PCM?)
U0402-00 - Implausible Data Received from TCM (Just how implausible. 600 horsepower is fairly implausible for a 5.7L R/T stock. Of course "Hello, World" is also implausible as is a binary encoded version of Macbeth.)
U0401-00 - Implausible Data Received from ECM/PCM (This also points to maybe the PCM?)
U0403-00 - Implausible Data Received from T-Case (Same as U0402-00)
C121C-00 - Torque Request Signal Denied (oof, DENIED)

Who wants to venture a guess as to what's busted? Is it the PCM? The BCM? Or is a CAN bus toasty/shorted/grounded either in wiring or in some busted controller? My other, previously mentioned symptoms are the persistent battery idiot light and the persistent "low voltage" notice on the EVIC. When we were reading codes, the EVIC displayed the oft-seen "Service Shifter" notice. Also often, the windshield wipers (front) will make a few passes and then stop. Formerly, there were some intermittent headlights coupled with intermittent dashboard display and intermittent Radio/HVAC events (basically seemed like the truck was going to reboot) which happened most often during high throttle situations (I'm like 550+ AWHP. not sure exactly where it's at these days. It's not a LOT of power, but its a lot more power than stock lol). I should probably add that this all started shortly after I suffered like a 2 or 3 day outage of the entire center stack as well as the power door locks and windows on the driver's side and the seat. There were some other things like the passenger door locks, but that window worked (From the passenger door). After doing a battery removal/circuit discharge, it was still not working for a few days. It just started working one day, but after this I'd somehow lost either the gear or actuator on the driver's side hvac damper or the control thereof. Shortly thereafter, these gremlins started, so the first steps were removing the battery, having it test "Charge, Good" but being OEM and 9 years old, replacing it anyway with a DIe Hard Platinum AGM h7. Finally, I did remove and replace the center console and the associated connections, checking each of the 2 ground straps and the connectors themselves for any issues based on the whole BCM being back there and the Service Shifter warnings as well as other threads on this forum showing this type of thing.

That bit about the AC damper door actuator seems unrelated, but is it?

The driver's side vents only blow hot air. The passengers are fine as is the rear. Maybe if I check the condition of the driver's side actuator and gear (sigh its hard to extract due to the torx bit and the clearance from what I see on youtube), I can perhaps identify if there is fault in the BCM since I presume that servo is under the jurisdiction of the BCM and solely the BCM? Or is there some HVAC controller that's separate (and not reporting a code?).

Finally, PCM or a BCM replacement, those are both going to require dealer assistance to stamp my VIN into the device, right? I also, obviously, have a custom tune, and the truck may not even run at all or may self-destruct the engine with a factory tune. It's got a supercharger and injectors and a 6.4L block with 9.5:1 pistons. Who knows what a stock fuel map would do to the engine? But I believe I'd have to flash my junk back to stock so that the diablosport intune can pair up with the replacement PCM. Then I have take a new original backup and get my tuner to re-apply the customizations to that new base/stock tune. Or will the currently loaded tunes still be valid and effective to flash on the replacement PCM? Hell, am I going to have issues with revisions of the PCM and tunability? II think wasn't 2014 the last year not to require unlocking the PCM to tune?

Sigh, thanks in advance for any feedback, input, or questions.
See less See more
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Oh boy, I pinged my local dealership to determine what advice or services they could offer me. They told me in no uncertain terms that I'm on my own here. They are uninterested in doing the actual diagnostics for this problem on a vehicle with a swapped motor and a supercharger. I was able to get them to commit to programming a PCM if I determined that it needed to be replaced, but they would not bear any liability for anything bad outcomes that their programming of the PCM lead to or did not lead to nor would they be of any assistance if that did not solve the problem(s),

Sadly, this was not the dealer where I bought the truck as I moved. This dealer has not done work on the truck in the past and does not have any relationship with me yet, so I guess their position is not entirely unreasonable.
See less See more
You had a 9 year old battery? That is pushing beyond any expectations of anyone. Are you that cheap :ROFLMAO::LOL::p
You have a different bottom end with a hacked PCM, blower and who knows what else and you want a dealer to help? That is the most ridiculous thing I have read on this forum in the last 6 months.

I think you need to work with Diablo or another vendor that you can ship your PCM to and get a modded one sent back.


Seriously good luck but stay away from the dealer.
You had a 9 year old battery? That is pushing beyond any expectations of anyone. Are you that cheap :ROFLMAO::LOL::p
You have a different bottom end with a hacked PCM, blower and who knows what else and you want a dealer to help? That is the most ridiculous thing I have read on this forum in the last 6 months.

I think you need to work with Diablo or another vendor that you can ship your PCM to and get a modded one sent back.


Seriously good luck but stay away from the dealer.
Woah. No need to get personal here, dude.

1) Who replaces a battery if there are no symptoms of the battery being bad? It's not like I've been using an external battery charger or jump starter for nursing a lousy battery. The battery is hidden under a seat, out of sight and out of mind. Actually, with the battery not being exposed to the elements, there's no corrosive buildup on the terminals, and it's not exposed to as harsh of conditions as a battery under the hood. Furthermore, my truck only has 72k miles on it anyway. Furthermore, you might consider the money I've spent on my truck, adding on the supercharger to the original 5.7, then later swapping out 5.7L for a reconfigured 6.4L, and paying the ongoing increasingly costly price of gasoline. I think "cheap" is the exact opposite of what I am... Q.E.D.

2) The PCM is not hacked. The 2014 PCM allows settings to be changed without hacking them like the 2015+

3) I did not, under any circumstances, ask or expect the dealer to assist (for money, not under warranty) with any of the modded subsystems. Clearly, this is an electrical issue and is either due to one of the controllers (PCM. TCM, BCM, etc...) on the can bus or a wiring failure somewhere along the CAN bus. The potential reasons for this set of problems are entirely related to items that remain OEM on my truck. And then, there are things that only the dealership can do. For example, can I even replace a PCM with an OE part without the tools that only the dealership can access, such as the device used to flash the PCM with my VIN? Or telling the BCM to recalibrate the HVAC Damper Actuator servos? If this Were a warranty problem, I would likely be able to win in a court of law via provisions of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act the ability to make warranty claims on the various control modules and their interactions, irrespective of my changes to the engine and its fuel or air delivery systems. It's not like I'm going in with a highly modded vehicle and asking the dealer to support, under warranty, a broken axle or transmission likely caused by overloading it with power.

So anyway, I appreciate your not-so-useful-and-somewhat-ad-hominem-response, which did not respond to any of the inquiries I had made. For you to misinterpret what I had asked and respond with, "That is the most ridiculous thing I have read on this forum in the last 6 months" is, in my estimation, more ridiculous than anything I have stated or asked.

Best regards,
--Randall
See less See more
Wuz up Brah? It is not personal so relax :D

So you did all that work over lots of time and never ever disconnected the out of site out of mind battery?
You think with removing the engine and all the other items you updated/modified that one of those might be the cause of the issue? Just a thought.

If you think a 6.4L short block, super charger, fuel injectors and PCM programming does not = highly modified then you are not going to be happy when you get the hand from any dealer unless you have super deep pockets.

Did you check for corrosion in the TIPM?
Having a battery test "charge good" does nothing to say the state of its health. A load test on a battery that has been properly charged and rested will determine its health. But you are replacing it, so it's not relevant now.

The PCM contains both, the ECM and TCM. Seeing that you have codes for the transmission, torque converter, and transfer case, I would look at the wiring to those. Including the sockets and pins inside each connector for corrosion. But I suspect that, with the over-voltage codes, you may have a voltage regulator going out on you and corrupting your PCM's coding.

The same goes for your BCM as well. Check the wiring and connectors just like you did with the PCM issues.

Hopefully you have a backup copy of your present tune(s) that can be used to restore them before replacing the PCM. Unless you know of place to restore your BCM with a copy of the factory model specific files, you'll need to replace it.

Oh, and yes, your PCM was hacked. Somewhere, somebody found a way to "hack" the software to be able to be overwritten with non manufacture code.
See less See more
Seriously good luck but stay away from the dealer.
Wuz up Brah? It is not personal so relax :D

So you did all that work over lots of time and never ever disconnected the out of site out of mind battery?
You think with removing the engine and all the other items you updated/modified that one of those might be the cause of the issue? Just a thought.

If you think a 6.4L short block, super charger, fuel injectors and PCM programming does not = highly modified then you are not going to be happy when you get the hand from any dealer unless you have super deep pockets.

Did you check for corrosion in the TIPM?
I never said it wasn't highly modified. Only that the modifications made only tangentially effect the subsystems in question for the symptoms I've experienced. And of course I'd formerly disconnected the battery, but again... It looked fresh and new and the voltage read 12.4VDC even up until I swapped it for the new Die Hard.

I did not check for corrosion in the Intelligent Power Distribution Center which is the device formerly known as a TIPM. Thank you for pointing this out as a possibility. I'll have a look around. I have tested several connections in there by way if testing individual fuse sockets with the meter.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
I never said it wasn't highly modified. Only that the modifications made only tangentially effect the subsystems in question for the symptoms I've experienced. And of course I'd formerly disconnected the battery, but again... It looked fresh and new and the voltage read 12.4VDC even up until I swapped it for the new Die Hard.

I did not check for corrosion in the Intelligent Power Distribution Center which is the device formerly known as a TIPM. Thank you for pointing this out as a possibility. I'll have a look around. I have tested several connections in there by way if testing individual fuse sockets with the meter.
If you live in NJ I would love to stop over, check things out with you!
Having a battery test "charge good" does nothing to say the state of its health. A load test on a battery that has been properly charged and rested will determine its health. But you are replacing it, so it's not relevant now.
So I took the battery to Advance Auto Parts and they did a load test, it came back "Charge, Good" because it tested that each cell was good but overall the battery was not charged to capacity. It started the truck fine and didn't drop down into the 11volt area when sitting idle even for days at a time. Im not going to try to justify the continued use of 9 year old AGM battery even if it is only used indoors so to speak.

The PCM contains both, the ECM and TCM. Seeing that you have codes for the transmission, torque converter, and transfer case, I would look at the wiring to those. Including the sockets and pins inside each connector for corrosion. But I suspect that, with the over-voltage codes, you may have a voltage regulator going out on you and corrupting your PCM's coding.
Is not the TCM separate from the ECM under the hood adjacent to the PDC.


The same goes for your BCM as well. Check the wiring and connectors just like you did with the PCM issues.
definitely will do and have done some of the checking around the BCM.

Hopefully you have a backup copy of your present tune(s) that can be used to restore them before replacing the PCM. Unless you know of place to restore your BCM with a copy of the factory model specific files, you'll need to replace it.
Of course I have a backup of both the original "tune" on the truck when I bought it new and every tune attempted and flashed heretofore including the most recent.

Oh, and yes, your PCM was hacked. Somewhere, somebody found a way to "hack" the software to be able to be overwritten with non manufacture code.
While I am not an OBDII Systems Engineer, I am a software engineer and devops engineer and have been doing so for about 25 years. Until 2015, it was not consider a "hack" to alter the alterable values in the firmware of a vehicle. Many of these changes were done using standards well known across the entire automotive industry. And yes, if you attempted to get something in the powertrain covered by Mopar and they were able to detect that you had changed any of the relevant settings, than you would be left holding the bag. But was this actually a "hack"?

What is done for model year 2015+ to subvert the protections that Mopar added to their PCMs to prevent tampering is most definitely a "hack".

That said, I'm not sure how useful the discussion regarding whether it is a hack or not is useful going forward.

Thanks and best regards,
--Randall
See less See more
If you live in NJ I would love to stop over, check things out with you!
Im actually near Willow Grove, PA :). Not so far... Just off the turnpike/276 which flows right on into I95 where it crosses over the Delaware into Jersey :p
I did not check for corrosion in the Intelligent Power Distribution Center which is the device formerly known as a TIPM. Thank you for pointing this out as a possibility. I'll have a look around. I have tested several connections in there by way if testing individual fuse sockets with the meter.
Ensure that every pin in each connector is straight. Use electrical contact cleaner and a soft bristle brush to clean them. But dont spray the cleaner directly on them, dip the brush in a cup with it.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
Ensure that every pin in each connector is straight. Use electrical contact cleaner and a soft bristle brush to clean them. But dont spray the cleaner directly on them, dip the brush in a cup with it.
I was hoping that it would not come down to this. But I guess this is better than replacing a PCM or a BCM only to have that not actually solve the issue. The BCM, Its not expensive enough to cry about replacing it and not having it work, but the PCM is a bit more and the LOE to replace it is higher because flashing tunes etc...

TYVM for the advice!
Swapping the PCM is somewhat trivial. Swapping the BCM is kind of a pain in the butt, to be honest. It's a whole freaking process and really worth avoiding if you can. IMO, the issue isn't there.

Lots of bickering about an old battery that you already replaced. If the issue hasn't resolved, then it's not the battery. Case closed on that one!

First - if you have a Windows laptop and a hundred bucks or so, invest in AlfaOBD and one of the OBD dongles that allows you to not have to use adapters for different modules. With that, you'll be able to do a lot of what the dealer can, including running the BCM procedures needed when you replace it.

Second - This is an odd grouping of codes, and an even stranger grouping of intermittent symptoms. Do you have ANY issues with the ABS not working?

You're using Diablosport for your tuner, correct? If that's the case, your trans is shifting at 5500 in auto mode. Do you notice more issues if you shift higher than that with the paddles?

C121C - This one gets set if you do a lot of brake-torque launches after you are tuned. The ABS controller wants the PCM to decrease the torque request, and the PCM says "no, lol". ABS disables when this code is active, though.
C212A - This can either be caused by the battery or the charging system, and manifests 2 ways. One is no ABS, the other is none of the buttons on the steering wheel work. If neither of those things are happening, then the code is old and not active.
C2101 - Again ABS would be disabled if this code were active.

If I were a betting man, before much further I'd make sure all of the codes have been cleared and the modules reset (OBD J-Scan makes this very convenient, but you can also do it module by module in AlfaOBD). Then I would have the alternator load tested. A lot of these intermittent issues seem related to the charging system and the load-shedding strategies in various modules, and the issues at higher RPM support that.
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: 1
Swapping the PCM is somewhat trivial. Swapping the BCM is kind of a pain in the butt, to be honest. It's a whole freaking process and really worth avoiding if you can. IMO, the issue isn't there.

Lots of bickering about an old battery that you already replaced. If the issue hasn't resolved, then it's not the battery. Case closed on that one!

First - if you have a Windows laptop and a hundred bucks or so, invest in AlfaOBD and one of the OBD dongles that allows you to not have to use adapters for different modules. With that, you'll be able to do a lot of what the dealer can, including running the BCM procedures needed when you replace it.

Second - This is an odd grouping of codes, and an even stranger grouping of intermittent symptoms. Do you have ANY issues with the ABS not working?

You're using Diablosport for your tuner, correct? If that's the case, your trans is shifting at 5500 in auto mode. Do you notice more issues if you shift higher than that with the paddles?

C121C - This one gets set if you do a lot of brake-torque launches after you are tuned. The ABS controller wants the PCM to decrease the torque request, and the PCM says "no, lol". ABS disables when this code is active, though.
C212A - This can either be caused by the battery or the charging system, and manifests 2 ways. One is no ABS, the other is none of the buttons on the steering wheel work. If neither of those things are happening, then the code is old and inactive.
C2101 - Again ABS would be disabled if this code were active.

If I were a betting man, before much further I'd make sure all of the codes have been cleared and the modules reset (OBD J-Scan makes this very convenient, but you can also do it module by module in AlfaOBD). Then I would have the alternator load tested. A lot of these intermittent issues seem related to the charging system and the load-shedding strategies in various modules, and the issues at higher RPM support that.
Thank you very much. It's clear you know what you're talking about, and I'm going to guess that you are an engineer in the automotive field and, if not, you're probably the kind of person you'd want to work with solving esoteric issues while building new derivative works around existing vehicles. I believe that AlfaODB is in the move here, as you've indicated, but I have a minor issue. Rather than doing a windows laptop which I do not have as I have mostly moved over to MacOS and Linux, I'm going to build a garage cart with a mini-itx system and LCD I have sitting around in purgatory wasting space.

Either way, I believe that the AutoZone freebie scan probably didn't know how to talk to ALL of the modules, or I'd be seeing similar codes popping from those systems. Do the other controllers tend to pop codes into the PCM like the ABS causes the PCM to throw P1C4E when there is more data on the ABS module? Or is that pretty much the ABS that has that "additional info" code? I need to test-fire my ABS I guess? Thankfully, I've not had the occasion to do so accidentally of late.

And yes, the alternator load test sounds like a good plan too. I don't have a 1000amp carbon pile, though, only my trusty multimeter that I use for Arduino projects and essential AC electrical work. So I'll need to find a place to do this. I think Advance Auto does?

I will have to actually pay attention to a paddle shift. I rarely use them driving around town and until recently, my tuner had too much going on during that 1->2 shift :). I'm not sure what options are available with the 2014, as I've read in DiabloSport forums that only some 2014 trans calibration ids are supported by the various DiabloSport tuners. But, I've had a bunch of non-paddle-selected missed 1->2 shifts where it winds up banging on the rev limiter and is sometimes followed by the trans going into limp mode and basically begging for mercy and then being OK after a reboot. The tuner recently tweaked the torque management to be a little kinder, so I guess I could try that paddle shift now.

Ill go forth and get things done now and will be back in touch whenever I come up for air.

Again, thank you for the detailed analysis. I really appreciate it.

Best,
--Randall
See less See more
So our local advance auto doesn't have a "real" alternator tester. Basically a multimeter that doesn't actually put a load on the thing. Evidently, they have a "big one" in the back but it's "been broken for years". Next victim :). And tonight Im going to my old place where my computer boneyard is so that I can build the garage cart Windows PC OBDII reader, documentation finding, video watching jawn for convenience :)
Thank you very much. It's clear you know what you're talking about, and I'm going to guess that you are an engineer in the automotive field and, if not, you're probably the kind of person you'd want to work with solving esoteric issues while building new derivative works around existing vehicles. I believe that AlfaODB is in the move here, as you've indicated, but I have a small issue. Rather than doing a windows laptop which I do not have as I have mostly moved over to MacOS and Linux, I'm going to build a garage cart. with a mini-itx system and LCD I have sitting around in purgatory wasting space.
Pretty good guess on background! I'm always looking at work-arounds to make things that don't exist. I like the idea of a garage cart, especially if you have a TV in the garage. Going to build it into a US General rolling cart? Toss that puppy in the bottom drawer, and mount the screen on an articulating mount, and use a side-tray for a mini keyboard/touchpad? Alternately - AlfaOBD has an android app, if you have an old tablet kicking around.

Either way, I am operating under the belief that the AutoZone freebie scan probably didn't know how to talk to ALL of the modules, or I'd be seeing similar codes popping from those systems. Do the other controllers tend to pop codes into the PCM like the ABS causes the PCM to throw P1C4E when there is more data on the ABS module? Or is that pretty much just the ABS that has that "additional info" code. I need to test fire my ABS I guess? Thankfully, I've not had the occasion to do so accidentally of late.
I wouldn't bother trying to engage ABS. If the light isn't on, those codes are stored. The overvolt happened at some time - but isn't currently happening.

And yes, alternator load test sounds like a good plan too. I don't have a 1000amp carbon pile though, only my trusty multimeter that I use for arduino projects and basic AC electrical work. So I'll need to find a place to do this. I think Advance Auto does?
I think Advance or Autozone will do it, and IIRC it's free.

I will have to actually pay attention to a paddle shift. I rarely use them driving around town and until recently, my tuner had too much going on during that 1->2 shift :). I'm not sure what options are available with the 2014 as I've read in DiabloSport forums that only some 2014 trans calibration ids are supported by the various diablosport tuners? But, I've had a bunch of non-paddle-selected missed 1->2 shifts where it winds up banging on the rev limiter and is sometimes followed by the trans going into limp mode and basically begging for mercy and then being OK after a reboot. The tuner recently tweaked the torque management to be a little kinder, so I guess I could try that paddle shift now.
That behavior at the 1-2 auto shift further supports my alternator theory. A partial failure of the field circuit can cause overvolt at high RPM and low-load... exactly what happens when the trans fails to shift, and bounces the limiter.

Good news is that alternators are cheap. Bad news is that if the alternator is fine, there's a chance it is the PCM at fault (the voltage regulator is built into the PCM). Hard to say one way or the other - you didn't throw any P-codes (P2503 or P2504) that would suggest the PCM has a failure, which is good.
See less See more
Pretty good guess on background! I'm always looking at work-arounds to make things that don't exist. I like the idea of a garage cart, especially if you have a TV in the garage. Going to build it into a US General rolling cart? Toss that puppy in the bottom drawer, and mount the screen on an articulating mount, and use a side-tray for a mini keyboard/touchpad? Alternately - AlfaOBD has an android app, if you have an old tablet kicking around.
I have a VERY old tablet kicking around. Runs Ice Cream Sandwich if you remember those days. Back when the Droid 1 was still hot. I never really adapted to the tablet form factor. Too hard to type. Ill be getting my old mini-itx system from my home tonight. Didn;t make it yesterday :(

I wouldn't bother trying to engage ABS. If the light isn't on, those codes are stored. The overvolt happened at some time - but isn't currently happening.
Oops. Well it works :). On dry pavement too. Damn near rear ended that poor kid who accidentally cut me off. I was happy to feel that telltale high frequency ABS duty cycle breaking kicking in.

I think Advance or Autozone will do it, and IIRC it's free.
Ill check the zone...Advance Auto here has a bench tester that they claim was broken for years. All they do is go out with a digital multimeter.

That behavior at the 1-2 auto shift further supports my alternator theory. A partial failure of the field circuit can cause overvolt at high RPM and low-load... exactly what happens when the trans fails to shift, and bounces the limiter.

Good news is that alternators are cheap. Bad news is that if the alternator is fine, there's a chance it is the PCM at fault (the voltage regulator is built into the PCM). Hard to say one way or the other - you didn't throw any P-codes (P2503 or P2504) that would suggest the PCM has a failure, which is good.
I get what you're saying... So the high rev, rev limiter pattern is toxic to the alternator's field thereby creating too much voltage in a spike? It's totally plausible. Luckily. the trans hasn't failed to shift since we just retuned the torque management a little a few days ago before I was assaulted by these electrical gremlins. But then again, Im not out there flooring it light to light with the gremlins on my back :)

More to come... Let me get the alfaodb jawn kickin' :p
See less See more
More to come... Let me get the alfaodb jawn kickin' :p
Decided fixing a broken laptop was easier than building a cart. Resultantly, I have my Vgate Linker MC+ coming in tomorrow and I have the Dell craptop ready to rock with winders 11!

Hope to have more information tomorrow!
Wow, ok, cool. That is an epic amount of data and information available from AlfaODB w/ the vLinker MC+. One thing is it seems difficult to read when trouble codes actually triggered and if they are still active or not. What I did do was take a snapshot of faults + more infoo, status, and system ID across many controllers, and then I cleared the fault data. I also logged a ride with some detailed alternator duty cycle/target voltage/etc data and it seems largely uninteresting.

The thing that irks me, though is Im still seeing the battery idiot light on the dash and the notice "low voltage" in the EVIC, but there is no accompanying low voltage situation as far as I can tell from the perspective of the PCM or any other controllers I can see on the bus. Ike I said, I now have a clean set of controllers with no faults, so t he next time this thing goes insane, I can see if that situation changes.

There seems to be a section about the intelligent battery sensor in the BCM that I want to take a deeper look at. Now that this is all ready, I feel like I'm ready to get that alternator load test on.

More to come :)
See less See more
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Top