Some chatter over in the GC land about this.

Politics aside, it appears to be quite a bit different from the VW issue, tho apparently Bosch is involved in both..

 

You wouldn't happened to have a link to the differences or more specific issue they have with them would you Tom? I was going to quick snatch one up if it was like VW, before they all were neutered, but if its different it may not be so bad?

 

EPA accusing FCA of diesel emissions cheating - Jeep Garage - Jeep Forum

That has links to the actual complaint.. as well as the usual internet political sludge

 

Here's a link to a Jalopnik article that I read that explains the differences between the two companies on this matter. Seems FCA is not quite as bad as VW.

Why Fiat Chrysler's Diesel ?Cheating? Might Not Be Anywhere Near As Bad As Volkswagen's

 

Cheating is like winning a race... It don't matter if it's an inch or a mile, it's still cheating/winning. Provided that there is any actual case to begin with,.but then again it's big brother media portraying it.

 

It all comes down to the AECDs in question, and if FCA can prove they protect the engine or not. Considering this investigation has been going on since Sept of 2015, if FCA hasn't made that point by now then that could spell trouble. On the other hand considering the timing of the accusations, and that the EPA hasn't specifically called this a "cheat" or defeat devices yet, it may be the EPA trying to gain traction via public opinion equating this to the VW cheat. This could all be a misunderstanding by FCA of what AECDs they actually needed to disclose at the time, considering some of them only occur outside of EPA test parameters anyway.

FCA has said they will fight the other class actions that have popped up and will "work with the incoming administration" with the EPA, so it will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

 

In this case, it is like moving the goalposts.

They built their emissions controls to handle the EPA's cycle (like a runner training for a specific-distance quick race or something), and then when asked to something besides that, the engine emits more than expected. So that's like asking the runner to keep sprinting 2x the length for what he trained for, to carry the basic analogy.

I honestly don't know how you'd expect a diesel to do different. EPA's cycle is like an "ideal", but driving around in reality never matches this cycle.

I don't think you can call that cheating, I think you can call that matching the requirements and ONLY the requirements.

 

Exactly Lanson. The only thing they are actually allegedly guilty of is not disclosing some 8 or 9 AECDs (which are allowed for engine start up or to protect components for example). Considering the ecodiesel is now probably the most popular light duty/car diesel motor (now that VW has pulled diesels out of North America) is was next on the EPA's list to take down, so they investigated for over a year to find a technicality they could squeeze $ out of. Supposedly this could be a 4.6 billion dollar fine.

GM and Ford better double check the fine print.

 

EPA is not an organization working on pure intentions, as it is part of an organization that has ulterior hidden motives (like most alphabet agencies.) Not to make someone don their tinfoil hat, but the reality is this could still result into FCA taking a huge hit, even if they aren't really at fault. A technicality in the law or some sort of tiny issue will be blown out of proportion, the media which is told what to do (by the ones with ulterior motives in the first place) will ostracize and obfuscate the issue, and do what they do best which is make mountains of out of molehills to avoid the actual issue, which is the EPA's reach and authority without a watchdog in place.

Popcorn standing by.

 

We all like to bad mouth the government. But look at the big picture. By following, or in my state's case exceeding, Federal requirements, we have made a major stride toward cleaner air overall. Let's not forget the huge hp gains made by using the computer to do this. We would still be looking at low hp smokers instead of 700 hp monster rigs like the Hellcat being a legal street machine. Every time the EPA makes newer more stringent rules we hear about all the crying coming from the automaker's reps about how it can't be done, but they always meet them and get more power to boot. So where is the complaint? Just because big brother is involved doesn't make it a bad thing. Meeting requirements is a fact of life. We shouldn't be crying because of a screw up, we should be working together to correct it and make it better. Personally I expect more findings like this. It won't hurt to look into this. They aren't saying that there will be fines yet as they don't know all the facts yet, and neither do we. Yes, FCA could have goofed. But it is also possible that the facts will clear them. Let's not hang folks until we have all of the facts.

 

I agree to a certain extent. Where I live we only follow federal emissions standards, even my Durango says "not for sale in California" lol. But in my state, only 2 counties are required to have vehicle emissions testing, and even then if your car is a 1996 or newer all the emissions test consists of is a gas cap pressure test and an obd-II scan to make sure all emissions monitors are reading properly and have not been reset. No actual measurement of exhaust gasses... which frankly is ridiculous, because I'm sure the refinery and all the steel mills (hint hint at which state lol) pollute FAR more than all the cars and truck traffic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Since editing seems to be broken:

California Warns The Incoming Trump EPA It's Gonna Do Whatever It Wants On Clean-Air Rules

 

Remember, they build 2 different vehicles now. One to meet Cali emission and one to meet the Fed. They just mark them differently and ship to appropriate states. So that model of construction will stay the same.

 

And what's the problem with being CARB compliant, other than we will be able to breathe better because of it. I can tell you that the system works to better our air quality and the cars still make all kinds of power. It's a win/win situation.

 

Nothing at all. I think it used to suck the fun out of cars for awhile, but manufacturers haven gotten much better at meeting the standards and giving us fun and powerful cars.

Regardless.... it's going to be interesting to see what they decide about the FCA diesels....

 

Yeah, trying to validate CARB to me is going to be tough. California is LONG known for being litigious to a very unnecessary level, and still has a huge smog problem (because of other issues, not the cars.)

Cali laws are insane. I know because in my profession I deal with them all the time, relative to the automotive field.

Example: On a repair order, a shop must NOT use "R&R" when explaining they are replacing a part. Only in California, they MUST type out "Remove and Replace". Stupid stuff like that (I have 100's of examples) just because of CA.

And why? Lawyers of course!

And I have news for you, it isn't for the betterment of the common person.

 

It is my understanding at least on older cars that CARB settings were created based on CA unique air patterns. IE warm and dry. With the advent of RFG gas they now blend the fuel to help engines run cleaner based on the region there in. In the end the performance of modern engines is the same. Diesel is a different breed, modern emission control is a balance of trying to meet standards that conflict each other. If you took all the emission controls off and used modern HPCR injection you would have better fuel economy, Very little soot longer, longer oil life, and on the bad side higher NOX limits. To control NOX you have to cool the combustion temp which causes soot requiring a DPF filter which is a maintenance Item all of which adds to reduced efficiency and performance. So the real question is a true hi efficiency clean diesel with higher NOX better then a less efficient more complex diesel that requires more fuel plus all of needed equipment to reduce NOX and thats before you even calculate all of the resources of raw material to make the equipment. Don't get me wrong I believe in clean air and any modern diesel is way ahead of what it replaced but I have to wonder if EPA is being a bit over zealous.

 

Bosch did design the control software for both the EcoDiesel and VW, however the 2 situations are entirely different:

VWs vehicles would detect when they were being tested and utilize the emissions control equipment during tests. It would be disabled otherwise, so they were giving the appearance of meeting standards for the test only, but not using emissions control in the real world.

With the Ecodiesel, they did not disclose 8 functions of the emissions control system to the EPA, but the operation was the same whether it was conducting a test or not. Moreover, all 8 of those functions are to protect the engine, because all of the emissions equipment mandated in the past decade or so would kill the engines it is mounted to-then everyone would complain that they bought an unreliable turd. Here are details:

FCA vs VW; SM on EPA, diesels ? Allpar News

The real problem is that the emissions requirements are out of touch with what is technologically possible to actually achieve. A 2016 Cummins with a delete kit burns far cleaner than a 1996 Cummins; the engines are very clean burning nowadays already .

To provide a bit more perspective into this whole diesel fiasco the EPA is heading, Takata has been fined a mere $1 billion for knowingly utilizing unstable airbag propellants that had shown to deploy the bag too quickly and cause injury or death to occupants.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/u-s-pen...c=socialflowFB

VW was fined $14.7 billion for evading EPA testing and possibly introducing pollutants that may eventually cause detrimental effects to some people.

So Takata produces airbags that injure and kill people, knowingly using a propellant that is more dangerous than alternatives they could have feasibly used instead and they get fined far less than VW, who found a way to reconcile the EPAs emissions standards that call for the application of non-existent levels of technology, with the real world.

I guess the lesson here is if you make a government agency look like the buffoons they are, they will really stick it to you in the "name of the people"

But if you kill a few people to save money you can come out on top because you will receive a much lighter penalty.

That's a good precedent to set

All the more reason for me to find the outrage over the VW scandal to be disingenuous. Aside from the fact that the emission standards and equipment are unrealistic given current technology and cause 1) poor mileage and 2) poor longevity. VW figured out a way to pass the tests while delivering the consumer a more efficient, longer lasting, and reliable car. It seems these people should be more upset that the government is trying to make companies sell them unreliable pieces of ****, but I guess they are directing their outrage where the government tells them to.

If you do not think there is a political aspect to the ongoing diesel scrutiny that the EPA has been conducting you are delusional

 

Aside from the fact that the emission standards and equipment are unrealistic given current technology and cause 1) poor mileage and 2) poor longevity. VW figured out a way to pass the tests while delivering the consumer a more efficient, longer lasting, and reliable car. It seems these people should be more upset that the government is trying to make companies sell them unreliable pieces of ****, but I guess they are directing their outrage where the government tells them to.

I'm sooo with you on this. I'd like to point out that manufacturing parts to fix these unreliable EPA approved engines results is chemical waste, and....wait for it......AIR POLLUTION! And sadly Thunder, there are areas of this country where propaganda is pretty extreme. Even the founding fathers that STARTED this government said NEVER to trust it, ALWAYS question it.

Yes, the laws are strange. As a CA native and a 30 year mechanic I can tell you that the CARB laws work. The air is cleaner in the Los Angeles area than it used to be and is easier to breathe, even though we have 10 times the drivers as when I was 16. After all, isn't that what we are trying for in the first place. We don't want to end up like China with people running around in masks and being told to stay inside.

I'm not going to say CARB doesn't cut emissions, I believe you that it does, but as ThunderHorse pointed out, at the cost of reliability. As a mechanic of 30yrs I'm sure you also realize it. Plus note is it is job security. I haven't wrenched for 30yrs, but I am ASE certified, and have studies many sciences most people don't even know exist. So while I don't believe in the CARB will save the world with mystical green magic, I do understand how it works, and why its also BAD for the engine.

California's true problem is being herded together into tiny areas, CARB is a bandaid for that. The poor air quality pollution in the US is EXTREMELY localized to areas where they pack people in small rooms, stacked vertically, with few trees. LA, NYC, etc pack people together like rats in a cage due to land constraints. Dense populations are also a great place for vermin, criminals, disease, etc to all flourish. If we wanted what was best for this planet that would be the removal of the entire human race, because we are the cause most of the bad things that happen to this planet. Obviously most of us realize/feel thats a BAD idea. No I am not promoting genocide. But someone might if they believe everything the Government/EPA is feeding people without providing evidence in many cases.

If someone wants to complain about emissions and they own are car were there is mass transit, to me in my opinion, that is hypocritical. And SURE AS HELL should not be daily driving a SUV or Truck unless using all of its capacity. My sister is a environmentalist, she rides a bicycle to work 10miles IN THE SNOW at 0*F because she lives what she preaches. I think its foolish but coodos to her for being real. And she has a 2yr old daughter she bundles up, puts in that little trailer thing behind the bicycle. Bicycling, walking, jogging, running are just as important to health. How many people die due to exhaust a year version obesity or other poor health issues? Chances of getting diabetes, heart disease, and so on is GREATLY reduced by being thin and excising, things that driving a car (electric or gas) around the corner to get soda, chips, candy, fast food, etc are not exactly conducive with.

Just think of how nice air will be when they are no more cars in Cali, NYC, etc. Those areas should convert to all electric buses, cars, trains. Then we can pay China TONS of money to make extremely volatile, explosive, toxic batteries, that every few years get tossed into a landfill, seep into water supplies, charge them with coal plants, Nuclear (which if they for critical makes a warhead look good aka Chernobyl/Fukushima vs Hiroshima/Nagasaki), since it will cost fortunes and decades to build an adequate green energy system to supply all current electric demands and the demands that all the fossil fuel (gas/diesel/propane/natural gas, etc) devices we still use once they were replaced with electric. Also, outside of metro areas the 30-50mile range on most pure electric cars won't get you from town to town.

Big cities lack TREES the natural air filtration systems. I mean I live in a state where its 53% forest, and friends from LA or NYC come here and first thing they say is "wow the air is so clean" or "Wow its so beautiful". Just visit a fly over state if you want fresh air.

I'm confused, when I talk about the efficiency on the V6 being better economy I was hassled for it, people saying "SUVs aren't about economy", and yet there is a anti-pollution/save the planet conversation occurring on the same SUV site. Anyways I've said my peace, live, believe, etc as you want and enjoy life as you wish, just please don't trample over the rest of us, and I'm going to my basket.

P.S. Thank you everyone that linked and enlightened me to the fact this is not the same thing as VW. If I had known that, I would have posted this politically fueled abuse of power by an Alphabet gang in the wind tunnel, or not at all.

 

Yes, the laws are strange. As a CA native and a 30 year mechanic I can tell you that the CARB laws work. The air is cleaner in the Los Angeles area than it used to be and is easier to breathe, even though we have 10 times the drivers as when I was 16. After all, isn't that what we are trying for in the first place. We don't want to end up like China with people running around in masks and being told to stay inside. Playing the language game is just a hassle, get over it. It looks more customer friendly to not have all the abbreviations on the work order any way.

 

We are already lightyears ahead of China, and most of Asia for that matter. Even with the amount of drivers we have in the US, the amount of pollution we produce is nothing compared to India, Taiwan, China, Malaysia, etc...

Much of it is industrial from factories and stuff, but even in more rural areas they burn palm groves which is pretty bad. Some areas cancel schools because the pollution causes respiratory problems.

Despite what many who have never left the US want you to believe about us in comparison to the rest of the world, we could probably leave emissions standards as they are today and be just fine

 

I don't know where you get your info on reliability. In the 50's and 60's engines had valve jobs performed at 50k and were replaced at 100k usually, or sooner. Today our gas engines are seeing more the 200k without the heads being pulled. This was only seen in diesels previously. In the 70's Pontiac v-8 engines got new timing chains at @ 45k just by being shut off. We had really no hp prior to the computer taking over for us. Overall reliability has improved greatly over the past decade or 2. You see cars today that get 200k on them with nothing but oil changes and regular maintenance where they died regularly prior to 100k in the past. Yes, there are problems with some cars and there control systems. Blame that on the design requirements of the specific company rather than on the agency that requires them as a lot of manufacturers seem to be able to make a quality product. I can't tell you how many 200k mi prius cars are running without a single problem. I have one of them. It is absolutely the most reliable car I have ever owned and I am definitely not easy on a vehicle. Don't get me started on the manufacturers that want to burn their customers to the ground. And all of that started pre CARB. CARB has done nothing but make our world better, though we had to get smarter and learn a lot of new tricks to do it. It is always easier to blame the Government when we don't like something than to learn how to work around it and make it better.