[dsga1]

all this stuff is SO GREAT. Many thanks for the insights. I plan to do various scans on before/after. In addition, scan one of my autos with OEM stereo that is REALLY like and hope to get some insight.

Specific to the front door 6x9s, I was looking at price (with return options) for Imange Dynamics x69s' and wondering if you like the following option: Infinity-Kappa-Perfect 900. The idea being able to leverage the mid 6x9 and the tweeters for appropriate front location in Durango and keep the cross-over for another project. I was able to score an Alpine -H800 and looking forward to putting this together.

.... the Image Dynamics X69 mid-bass woofers. The X69's have no separate tweeter, they are woofers only. Not to over-complicate it, the X69 is one of the best 6x9 woofers made currently, .. They are crossed as follows in the MS-8 processor: 75hz High-pass, and 3.15kHz low-pass. These are both steep 24dB/octave slopes. The tweeters I've picked out take over from there. ...

 

[dsga1]

"peeve" review was great. pretty amazing "suitcase" in the back. When he say "3 way active" in each door -- I'm assuming each is corresponding channel with high/mid/low?
where were all the amps?

funny guy :-D:-D. -GA

Yeah, he is in a video, dressed in a Luchador mask as "El ******", it is hilarious. Anyway, he's showing off his badass prototype 24 channel multi-processor. I don't need 24 channels, but I would LOVE to have a modern processor with that much brain in it. I'd certainly take time and make some A-pillar midrange setup, some 2-channel center, etc if I got a processor that could handle it.

FOUND it

 

[MoparMike]

"peeve" review was great. pretty amazing "suitcase" in the back. When he say "3 way active" in each door -- I'm assuming each is corresponding channel with high/mid/low?
where were all the amps?

funny guy :-D:-D. -GA

You're correct about the 3-way. Each door, has its own high, mid and low frequency drivers and are all run with active crossovers. That "suitcase" is a prototype processor that has amplification for each channel. That one box controls and powers all of the speakers.

 

[Joc17RT]

@Lanson,

This is an awesome thread.
Thanks for the time you took documenting everything.
This is a tremendous help for me trying to decide which way im going with my new audio setup on my 17rt when it is delivered.

Can i ask you to make a summary of speakers you have in each location and the wattage youre sending to each driver.

Will probably go all out and was looking at a 6-8ch amp but am not sure it is needed.
Space being limited id prefer to stick to one amp.
Looking to replace all speakers but might keep the oem sub enclosure and try to work around it.

 

[Lanson]

@Lanson,

This is an awesome thread.
Thanks for the time you took documenting everything.
This is a tremendous help for me trying to decide which way im going with my new audio setup on my 17rt when it is delivered.

Can i ask you to make a summary of speakers you have in each location and the wattage youre sending to each driver.

Will probably go all out and was looking at a 6-8ch amp but am not sure it is needed.
Space being limited id prefer to stick to one amp.
Looking to replace all speakers but might keep the oem sub enclosure and try to work around it.

Thanks, I'll do my best to summarize the power and speaker flow here:

Front door woofers - Image Dynamics X69 midbass
Front door tweeters - Alpine SPX PRO (or replicas, there's debate about that on another forum) tweeters
Center - Wavecor 3.5" 4 ohm full-range driver (AWESOME speaker)
Rear doors - completely stock
D-pillars - completely stock
Subs - Sundown SD3

Power structure - 4 amps
Massive NX4 pair, one is running bridged to the front woofers (rated at 400x2 bridged), the other is NX4 is running the center (bridged), and the front tweeters. So that's 400x1 and 100x2. There is also a tiny Power Acoustik amp that powers the rear doors and D-pillars all together off 2 channels of input. That amp is rated at 130x4 but that's definitely more like a maximum number given the amp rating of the fuse, but it is fine for the application. The sub amp is a Massive N3, 800x1 (in 2 ohm config.) With all of these amps, these "RMS" power ratings are pretty useless to me, because I'm not pushing any of this very hard, and I'm pretty sure Massive overrates some of their gear a bit. I'm 100% sure Power Acoustik does. Certainly, I am not lacking in amplifier power though.

Does that give you what you are after?

 

[Joc17RT]

Thanks, I'll do my best to summarize the power and speaker flow here:

Front door woofers - Image Dynamics X69 midbass
Front door tweeters - Alpine SPX PRO (or replicas, there's debate about that on another forum) tweeters
Center - Wavecor 3.5" 4 ohm full-range driver (AWESOME speaker)
Rear doors - completely stock
D-pillars - completely stock
Subs - Sundown SD3

Power structure - 4 amps
Massive NX4 pair, one is running bridged to the front woofers (rated at 400x2 bridged), the other is NX4 is running the center (bridged), and the front tweeters. So that's 400x1 and 100x2. There is also a tiny Power Acoustik amp that powers the rear doors and D-pillars all together off 2 channels of input. That amp is rated at 130x4 but that's definitely more like a maximum number given the amp rating of the fuse, but it is fine for the application. The sub amp is a Massive N3, 800x1 (in 2 ohm config.) With all of these amps, these "RMS" power ratings are pretty useless to me, because I'm not pushing any of this very hard, and I'm pretty sure Massive overrates some of their gear a bit. I'm 100% sure Power Acoustik does. Certainly, I am not lacking in amplifier power though.

Does that give you what you are after?

Thank you, this is exactly what i was looking for
I cannot believe you're sending 400x1 to the center channel, that is an insane amount of power you have there..lol
You definitely have the potential to send the speaker on orbit if you go crazy on the gain..haha.

Can i ask where you got the center channel, searched a bit on the net and it didnt seem to be easily available.
Last, I looked up your Alpine tweeters and couldnt find them, has these models been replaced by something else ?
Tought of using the xs69 instead but am not sure about the tweets, they seem big for the oem location and reviews arent as great as for the midbass speaker alone.
Tweeter choice is not easy since its gotta fit and blend with the the x69 (i definitely think ill get these midbass since theres not a lot of good options and reviews are quite good on these)

 

[dsga1]

@Lanson -- can't tell you how much I appreciate the pics with caliper measurements. So much easier for planning and purchase.

thanks -GA

This is the part that comes out of the stock tweeter mount.


1.473" inner

1.624" outer

This is my backup plan, which is to install a bare Wavecor 22mm chambered tweeter. Not gonna work without surgery!

But it WOULD work if I needed it.

There's an inner lip of the tweeter mount, and that's 1.817".

The tweeter I really want to use is 1.889". Soooo, a little big then?

But...it is CLOSE, .... <snip>

Next up, deadening the door.

 

[Lanson]

Thank you, this is exactly what i was looking for
I cannot believe you're sending 400x1 to the center channel, that is an insane amount of power you have there..lol
You definitely have the potential to send the speaker on orbit if you go crazy on the gain..haha.

Can i ask where you got the center channel, searched a bit on the net and it didnt seem to be easily available.
Last, I looked up your Alpine tweeters and couldnt find them, has these models been replaced by something else ?
Tought of using the xs69 instead but am not sure about the tweets, they seem big for the oem location and reviews arent as great as for the midbass speaker alone.
Tweeter choice is not easy since its gotta fit and blend with the the x69 (i definitely think ill get these midbass since theres not a lot of good options and reviews are quite good on these)

Regarding the 400W to the center, yes it is a bunch of power but its not like the speaker EVER sees that. In truth, no speaker sees the max power of an amp, except in moments of quick transients. Even then, yes, my gain is very low on the center, I'd wager my system pushes nothing near that on any of my speakers.

Center channel - Wavecor FR090WA01 3 1 2" Full Range Neodymium Aluminum Cone 4 Ohm Driver | eBay but they are available in other places, but they are a bit rare, no question. Wavecor is my favorite new speaker brand, btw.

Tweeters - subject of MUCH debate (and some hate), but here you go: Hot eBay deal - Alpine SPX PRO tweeters - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum and you might surmise that I am "fourthmeal" on that forum. I do maintain that these are some sort of new-old stock or runover tweeter. Even if they are "fake", they measure amazingly well, sound really good, and fit our Durango really well with minor mods.

Your comment about the XS69 is on-point, and yep, the tweeter isn't as good. But you can sell the tweets and crossovers for some money back, if the mids are all you want. You can buy them legit from the DIYMA site from a guy name Majik. He's a vendor for Image Dynamics, and will provide a good price and they will be warranted. I do feel the SPX tweets (or replicas or whatever) are a fantastic match for the X69. An even better tweeter (for 10x the price) would be the Audiofrog offerings.

 

[Joc17RT]

Regarding the 400W to the center, yes it is a bunch of power but its not like the speaker EVER sees that. In truth, no speaker sees the max power of an amp, except in moments of quick transients. Even then, yes, my gain is very low on the center, I'd wager my system pushes nothing near that on any of my speakers.

Center channel - Wavecor FR090WA01 3 1 2" Full Range Neodymium Aluminum Cone 4 Ohm Driver | eBay but they are available in other places, but they are a bit rare, no question. Wavecor is my favorite new speaker brand, btw.

Tweeters - subject of MUCH debate (and some hate), but here you go: Hot eBay deal - Alpine SPX PRO tweeters - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum and you might surmise that I am "fourthmeal" on that forum. I do maintain that these are some sort of new-old stock or runover tweeter. Even if they are "fake", they measure amazingly well, sound really good, and fit our Durango really well with minor mods.

Your comment about the XS69 is on-point, and yep, the tweeter isn't as good. But you can sell the tweets and crossovers for some money back, if the mids are all you want. You can buy them legit from the DIYMA site from a guy name Majik. He's a vendor for Image Dynamics, and will provide a good price and they will be warranted. I do feel the SPX tweets (or replicas or whatever) are a fantastic match for the X69. An even better tweeter (for 10x the price) would be the Audiofrog offerings.

Just saw you reply, awesome. Thanks again!
That was quite some heat you got on DIYMA, thanks for sharing the link. At that price and following your personnal experience i have ordered a set and will try them out.
Worse that can happen is i loose 50$ and need to order the GB10, as long as the Audiofrog arent smaller in size and fit in the SPX place once the opening on the door panel is enlarged a couple of mil.
Contacted Majik, we'll see what he comes up with price wise.

Also found the Wavecor so will give it a try.

And for the record not trying to copy your build just making sure to use a proven recipe
You and MoparMike did a great job on the stereo side.
I spent like 30k on mods on my last Mustang and spent so much time and $ playing with the oem audio setup that this time i promised myself (and wife) i would go the simple and proven way..haha

 

[Lanson]

I totally understand, and I think you'll be happy. Just be sure to quell the resonance issues with deadening in doors, rear tailgate, floor, etc and you should be able to enjoy it as much as I do mine. I still need to finish my build, but I've decided to wait until the weather gets below 100 degrees.

Just saw you reply, awesome. Thanks again!
That was quite some heat you got on DIYMA, thanks for sharing the link. At that price and following your personnal experience i have ordered a set and will try them out.
Worse that can happen is i loose 50$ and need to order the GB10, as long as the Audiofrog arent smaller in size and fit in the SPX place once the opening on the door panel is enlarged a couple of mil.
Contacted Majik, we'll see what he comes up with price wise.

Also found the Wavecor so will give it a try.

And for the record not trying to copy your build just making sure to use a proven recipe
You and MoparMike did a great job on the stereo side.
I spent like 30k on mods on my last Mustang and spent so much time and $ playing with the oem audio setup that this time i promised myself (and wife) i would go the simple and proven way..haha

 

[Joc17RT]

raamm

I totally understand, and I think you'll be happy. Just be sure to quell the resonance issues with deadening in doors, rear tailgate, floor, etc and you should be able to enjoy it as much as I do mine. I still need to finish my build, but I've decided to wait until the weather gets below 100 degrees.

Oh yeah for sure ill install some deadening material. I still have some Raam audio ensolite, Raammat and Boommat.

Where i will need help is with the processor as i dont not want to overcomplicate things too much.
I was thinking of getting the new Audiocontrol DM810 that has 8 inputs/10 outputs.
I could in theory tap all oem Alpine amp outputs and run them trough the processor.

My RT will have ( D1 status at the factory ) the rear entertainment system.
I didnt see any mention from you or Moparmike about this. With the processor and in your case with fader full front how would that affect the sound for the dvd when the kids will want to watch a movie ?

This is a family vehicule so gotta think of my 4 boys in the back..haha.

I never used a dsp or worked with an rta so im a bit hesitant about the tuning part..lol

 

[Lanson]

Oh yeah for sure ill install some deadening material. I still have some Raam audio ensolite, Raammat and Boommat.

Where i will need help is with the processor as i dont not want to overcomplicate things too much.
I was thinking of getting the new Audiocontrol DM810 that has 8 inputs/10 outputs.
I could in theory tap all oem Alpine amp outputs and run them trough the processor.

My RT will have ( D1 status at the factory ) the rear entertainment system.
I didnt see any mention from you or Moparmike about this. With the processor and in your case with fader full front how would that affect the sound for the dvd when the kids will want to watch a movie ?

This is a family vehicule so gotta think of my 4 boys in the back..haha.

I never used a dsp or worked with an rta so im a bit hesitant about the tuning part..lol

MS-8's are still going strong in the used market.

Here's one: FS: JBL MS8 LNIB - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

If you want one, do not hesitate.

edit:

IF you want center channel and surround sound abilities, there is this MS-8 and the Alpine H800 processor, and that's just about it. There's a huge gaping hole in the options for center/surround processors. Audiofrog's future offering is our only future hope right now. But a JBL MS-8 is still a great option.

Regarding rear sound, I'd disable that and let them run earphones if that's an option. There's really no way to make all of that work perfectly. That's what I did with my 2010 Ford Flex, which had rear entertainment DVD's as well. Just disabled and let the kid use the headphones.

 

[MoparMike]

Oh yeah for sure ill install some deadening material. I still have some Raam audio ensolite, Raammat and Boommat.

Where i will need help is with the processor as i dont not want to overcomplicate things too much.
I was thinking of getting the new Audiocontrol DM810 that has 8 inputs/10 outputs.
I could in theory tap all oem Alpine amp outputs and run them trough the processor.

My RT will have ( D1 status at the factory ) the rear entertainment system.
I didnt see any mention from you or Moparmike about this. With the processor and in your case with fader full front how would that affect the sound for the dvd when the kids will want to watch a movie ?

This is a family vehicule so gotta think of my 4 boys in the back..haha.

I never used a dsp or worked with an rta so im a bit hesitant about the tuning part..lol

Mine doesn't have the rear entertainment system but if it was playing audio through the UConnect then I wouldn't expect it to be an issue with the way that I have things wired up. The fader could be adjusted to turn rear speakers back on, audio comes out back there for passengers and I could even use the separate JL DRC knob to cut all audio for the custom stuff if I didn't want to hear it in the front.

 

[Joc17RT]

Mine doesn't have the rear entertainment system but if it was playing audio through the UConnect then I wouldn't expect it to be an issue with the way that I have things wired up. The fader could be adjusted to turn rear speakers back on, audio comes out back there for passengers and I could even use the separate JL DRC knob to cut all audio for the custom stuff if I didn't want to hear it in the front.

I will read your build thread once more but whats the difference between the way you and Lanson wired everything. Seems both of you are having the fader full forward.

Is the fix82 the missing link ?

I was looking at a fix 86 but wanst sure it had enough output to hookup everything.

 

[Joc17RT]

MS-8's are still going strong in the used market.

Here's one: FS: JBL MS8 LNIB - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

If you want one, do not hesitate.

edit:

IF you want center channel and surround sound abilities, there is this MS-8 and the Alpine H800 processor, and that's just about it. There's a huge gaping hole in the options for center/surround processors. Audiofrog's future offering is our only future hope right now. But a JBL MS-8 is still a great option.

Regarding rear sound, I'd disable that and let them run earphones if that's an option. There's really no way to make all of that work perfectly. That's what I did with my 2010 Ford Flex, which had rear entertainment DVD's as well. Just disabled and let the kid use the headphones.

I dont even know if i can hookup 4 headphones to the entertainment system so will have to investigate.
Wanted to use them anyway but still would like some surround available.
Both ms8 and alpine offerings are dating although still good.

Dont like the path my future build is taking, looking more complicated now...lol

 

[Lanson]

I will read your build thread once more but whats the difference between the way you and Lanson wired everything. Seems both of you are having the fader full forward.

Is the fix82 the missing link ?

I was looking at a fix 86 but wanst sure it had enough output to hookup everything.

Not to speak for Mike, but mostly our differences (besides his use of a 3-way active setup in the front end...can't wait to see how he implements!) is I've embraced the use of a center channel and surround, which has certain needs (a good center is key, for instance, while another is the need to put every speaker through the processor's outputs so everything is delayed correctly to create the right sound field), whereas Mike is using a processor that is more direct in nature, as in he puts in an input (from the Fix), and gets an output to his processor. I believe he's embracing more of a stereo setup, eschewing using the center. My main reason for going with the direction I did was to get the best performance for driver and passenger as equals. My wife enjoys my systems as much as I do, and to be honest it makes it a lot easier to justify the expense, time, and effort in building something when momma says "OK, let's do it".

 

[MoparMike]

Yeah, Lanson's comment is right on. Mine is setup as a stereo configuration with a 3-way active front stage. The 6 speakers up front are time aligned to create a phantom center over the middle of the dash but it is setup for the listening position to be in the driver's seat. I am not using any rear signals from the UConnect to feed audio into my processors and in turn the amps, front speakers and subs. The only signals that go into the aftermarket gear are those from the tweeters and woofer signals from the front door speakers.

Joc17RT, you are asking about audio coming out of the rear entertainment system and not having any experience with it I couldn't say how exactly it would work for you. All I could say was that if it was played by the rear speakers (as I assume it would be) then my method of wiring wouldn't disable that functionality. You just need to adjust the fader when it is in use. Furthermore, since I have a separate volume control over the front speakers, if any of the audio from the rear entertainment was being sent to the front speakers that could be turned down, or muted, with that volume knob without affecting the rear speakers at all.

Lanson, I haven't updated my build log in a while but I have moved the mids from the PVC pods that I built and into the kickpanels. Right now they are in wood baffles that are bolted to the plastic kick panels. I am not ready yet to fiberglass them but they are at least hard mounted with all wiring tucked behind panels. Thus far, I am quite pleased with the sound. I have a very deep and wide listening stage. Sound is at least as wide as the limits of the car's interior. With most vocals the sound is placed just over the center of the dash. Intensity of certain instruments pulls the center down and to the driver's side. Still working on level adjustments and keep tweaking things every couple of days. I did have a mishap with my PPi mids and they are not in the car right now. Instead I am running an older pair of Hybrid Legatia L3v1's that I had from a previous build. Midbass has really come in well and blends great with the subs. Aside from some tactile cues from the driver's seat, kick drums appear to come from the dash. I haven't done any EQ thus far. Adjustments have been primarily in levels, crossover points and time alignment. Still need a mic before I can begin to EQ.

 

[Joc17RT]

Not to speak for Mike, but mostly our differences (besides his use of a 3-way active setup in the front end...can't wait to see how he implements!) is I've embraced the use of a center channel and surround, which has certain needs (a good center is key, for instance, while another is the need to put every speaker through the processor's outputs so everything is delayed correctly to create the right sound field), whereas Mike is using a processor that is more direct in nature, as in he puts in an input (from the Fix), and gets an output to his processor. I believe he's embracing more of a stereo setup, eschewing using the center. My main reason for going with the direction I did was to get the best performance for driver and passenger as equals. My wife enjoys my systems as much as I do, and to be honest it makes it a lot easier to justify the expense, time, and effort in building something when momma says "OK, let's do it".

My need is also to please not only the driver but my wife and the kids in the truck so i would like to use the center as well as the surround speakers.

As Mike was saying te fix is only there to do the tasks his processor cant do. With the MS8 in your case or with the processor i'm looking at like the AC DM810 all the signal flattening and processing would be done in the same box.

What i dont understand is why you think it cannot work perfectly if all the oem Alpine high level signals are redirected to the dsp and then to extrnal amplification.
I understand that using the fader and volume control from the head unit could change the dsp calibration but no sure to what effect.
Seems that any processor you add to system adds limitations

 

[Joc17RT]

Yeah, Lanson's comment is right on. Mine is setup as a stereo configuration with a 3-way active front stage. The 6 speakers up front are time aligned to create a phantom center over the middle of the dash but it is setup for the listening position to be in the driver's seat. I am not using any rear signals from the UConnect to feed audio into my processors and in turn the amps, front speakers and subs. The only signals that go into the aftermarket gear are those from the tweeters and woofer signals from the front door speakers.

Joc17RT, you are asking about audio coming out of the rear entertainment system and not having any experience with it I couldn't say how exactly it would work for you. All I could say was that if it was played by the rear speakers (as I assume it would be) then my method of wiring wouldn't disable that functionality. You just need to adjust the fader when it is in use. Furthermore, since I have a separate volume control over the front speakers, if any of the audio from the rear entertainment was being sent to the front speakers that could be turned down, or muted, with that volume knob without affecting the rear speakers at all.
QUOTE]

Dont you think that in my case it would be easier to send all signals to the dsp and tune the system with the fader more foward.
When needed i guess i could play with the fader to give the rear more power.
Again my limitatation will be with the dsp tuning i think. I havent played with a dsp yet but suspect that they all are affected if you play with the volume and fader after tuning.

I'd really like to not have to play with two master volume..!

 

[MoparMike]

Yeah, Lanson's comment is right on. Mine is setup as a stereo configuration with a 3-way active front stage. The 6 speakers up front are time aligned to create a phantom center over the middle of the dash but it is setup for the listening position to be in the driver's seat. I am not using any rear signals from the UConnect to feed audio into my processors and in turn the amps, front speakers and subs. The only signals that go into the aftermarket gear are those from the tweeters and woofer signals from the front door speakers.

Joc17RT, you are asking about audio coming out of the rear entertainment system and not having any experience with it I couldn't say how exactly it would work for you. All I could say was that if it was played by the rear speakers (as I assume it would be) then my method of wiring wouldn't disable that functionality. You just need to adjust the fader when it is in use. Furthermore, since I have a separate volume control over the front speakers, if any of the audio from the rear entertainment was being sent to the front speakers that could be turned down, or muted, with that volume knob without affecting the rear speakers at all.
QUOTE]

Dont you think that in my case it would be easier to send all signals to the dsp and tune the system with the fader more foward.
When needed i guess i could play with the fader to give the rear more power.
Again my limitatation will be with the dsp tuning i think. I havent played with a dsp yet but suspect that they all are affected if you play with the volume and fader after tuning.

I'd really like to not have to play with two master volume..!

You don't have to use two volume controls, or add any unnecessary headaches either. Both Lanson and myself have built SQ-oriented systems with an emphasis on accurate sound reproduction through more complex tuning. What are you exactly looking for in your upgrade? You mentioned retaining the rear entertainment system's functionality but what else? Do you need time alignment? If this about accurate sound reproduction or just an increase in the quality of your car's stereo?