Little bit of roof flex but its quiet. Very nice!! And I like your idea of placing the sound deadening under the spare tire, gonna steal that for mine in an effort to avoid cutting the carpeting out.

I'm looking at the peak in your sub response and considering your comment about being limited by the box. What was your final measurement of volume in that enclosure? What did the measurements look like before you raised the crossover frequency?

 

You can probably keep the carpeting in, yep. The underneath is as good as the top, when it comes to quelling resonance. The panel is a LOT easier to deal with under the car, compared with the rough terrain inside under that carpet.

I am not sure of the final measurement of the box. I have it somewhere but I'd estimate it to be 1.0 cubes after displacement. The peak in the response is likely cabin gain more than anything else. I am used to lower-playing setups however, so I've got a lot of boost down low where the response falls off.

I don't think I took pics of the 65hz cross point work. I looked through my stored shutterfly files and I don't see any, but later tonight I'll check my laptop for any saved REW files. I was operating very late at night when I was installing the ID's and initially setting that cross point, and I think I was doing it just by ear. I bet, now that I think about it, I'd probably like it now that I've swapped the phase. It sure can be rough on the front doors though, as they can't maintain that lower frequency point without serious boost, which creates interference (contact) issues with the door panel at high output.

Nothing like a little roof flex to remind you what a decent pair of 10's can do.

 

This post is gold! I've read every page, and Mike's as well. Just have a couple of questions if you don't mind. I like to listen reasonably loud, but nothing that will rattle the cars next to me.

1. Why did you put ensolite around the 6x9 as a gasket?
2. Can the MS-8 run the factory speakers (minus the sub), or should I amp all of them, just the 6x9s, etc....
3. How's it sound in the 2nd row seats? I ask because my kids are with me most of the time, and they love music, too.
4. Can you give a little more info on what you did with the rear/d-pillar setup?

Thanks in advance.

 

1. I was trying to create a basic gasket to prevent mid-high frequency cancellation inside the door panel. It won't help bass frequencies as they'll pass right through, but it is sorta like cupping your hands and it helps reduce midrange issues. There are more professional tools called "fast rings" that do this better. edit found them for 6x9, not sure if they'd work in our application but you can see here http://www.mobilesolutions-usa.com/...usa.com/store/p876/F.A.S.T._Rings__3-Piece_Foam_6"x9"_Speaker_Enhancer_Kit.html My way has some negatives like if the ensolite folds over on itself toward the speaker, it will hit the speaker and you can hear that at high excursion. That has happened before.

2. You could run factory speakers with the MS-8, but it has 20W of power, from a chip-amp, and I've noticed in other builds that it distorts early. In my opinion, even a very basic 50-75W per channel amp would be better, at least on your main speakers that need some juice to move. I also like having gain control with amps vs. the MS-8 just doing what it does, and you can't modify it.

3. Haven't heard it, but kids seem to jam to what's playing. The MS-8 can be tuned for multiple seats, effectively creating compromises in the output to please others. I am selfish (not really, just kidding) but I've only tuned for the driver's front at this time.

4. With the rear speakers and d-pillar, I ran a 4 channel amp off two channels of the MS-8. I made my own splitters out of cable and switchcraft RCA's, but I imagine you could just buy some or buy an amp with a summing ability built-in. Anyway, two channels out of the MS-8, pipe to the amp and become 4 channels through the splitters. Front channels of the amp go to the doors, rear channels go to the D-pillars, and play at a very low gain. They just provide a little bit of ambience. When I tune/calibrate the MS-8, it treats the two speakers as one source and it works great.

 

One more question about the rear setup. Are you crossing the rear and d-pillar speakers both at 110hz, or did you set the MS-8 to 110hz, and use the amp to cross the d-pillars higher? Just not sure how low those small speakers will play. Also, what software are you using? I like how you have a reference/target plot and the distortion measurement. I'm fairly new to these aspects of car audio, so trying to learn. Always been a new speakers and amp guy, with some deadening thrown in for good measure. It's always been ok, but ready to take it to the next level. You guys have inspired me.

 

The crossover is a bit higher (just on the amp I have, simple crossover), I think its 200hz on the D-pillars rears or so. Those guys don't play low but also, they are playing extremely quiet compared with the rest of the system.

I use REW for software, you'll love it if you like free stuff! You just need a good mic with a calibration file, to get the most out of it.

 

Hey Lanson!! your continued updates are incredibly detailed. thanks again for the cycles to post all this. such great information for everyone.

a couple questions have come to mind:

1. do the rear D-pillar speakers only push parksense details? would it be OK to leave D-pillar connected to OEM Amplifier -- these would be ONLY speakers connected to OEM AMP?
2. as alternative, would it be OK to consider REAR doors at midrange and D-Pillar as tweeter and push signal to both via active crossover (external to AMP). In this scenario would include D-pillar for DSP input (along with FRONT DOOR and FRONT TWEETER). I've been working on strategy for AMP(s) and how to push signal to nine different speaker channels (and SUB ). When using DSP (I bought Alpine -H800), is it preferred to have all target speakers driven by discreet signals from DSP to AMP (as opposed to leveraging external active crossover to reduce the # of AMP channels -- example HERE)?
3. you posted lots of great pics of soundproofing with Dynamat (or whatever u using). why the small "patchwork" vs larger "full coverage" application? Is this a case of cost or specific fit/finish?

 

1. Yes the D-pillar outputs in the factory amp are what outputs parksense. Since I've now built my system the way I have, I realize that the parksense is far too quiet at times. I'd rather have it blare than be too quiet, so I'm probably going to re-wire some inputs to the MS-8 so it can at least pick up on the sound and output it. It might come through the front speakers or even all speakers, but I'd be OK with that.

2. I'm not sure what you're talking about here, I think I'm confused by what you're trying to accomplish. Remember, for surround systems anyway, rear speakers should not be high-end, crystal-clear speakers. You are shooting for ambient sound, something diffuse and basic. You don't want a speaker to distract your attention backward. So for that reason, you want all the speakers in the rear to play basically the same sound, as one simple "speaker" per each output. Remember if you run an active crossover, you need an amp afterwords so you might as well split the signal like I did if you want the same effect. Y-splitters will do a fine, simple job here. Or just leave off the D-pillar outputs and let the parksense come through completely stock (just fade the stock head unit full forward.) Now that I've run it for a while, I'm not sure the D-pillars really DO anything for my system in any beneficial way. I have yet to get back there and listen for any length of time though.

3. check out www.sounddeadenershowdown.com for advice on how to use deadening materials. In it, you'll see there's scientific evidence that full coverage is largely non-essential. If a piece of metal is shaped in anyway but flat, then it is FAR stronger and will not resonate nearly as easily. There's a case of severely diminishing effect with laying deadening down on every surface. About 25% coverage (on all flat surfaces basically) should in theory and in practice reduce resonance almost as much as full coverage. The only place I broke this rule was underneath the car, where I need absolutely as much resonance reduction as I can get, if I intend to downfire. Side note, I will be breaking into the doors and applying much more deadening, foam, and maybe some MLV, maybe some foil barrier, etc because right now, those doors make a racket at full power, on certain frequencies. I will be doubling/tripling my efforts at the doors.

 

I haven't looked at what you have done in detail on the doors but here is what I am planning on for deadening:

• Apply 80 mil butyl deadener onto the metal inner-door skin, ~ 80 % coverage
• Same for the plastic cover on the inner door
• Same on the backside of the door card, but smaller pieces and only 25% coverage
• Focus on things like the back side of the handle, connecting rods for the latches, and exposed wiring that may rattle around

Do you see anything past these that have been an issue in yours?

 

I don't think you'll need or even be able to apply 80% coverage. In testing, I can't get the outside of the car doors to make a peep with what I've installed (remember the flexing roof vid). The interior of the door is definitely not a problem at least for how I've got mine set up.

The plastic cover part is actually fiber-reinforced, is VERY strong by what I can tell, and should definitely not be a problem. You can test by installing everything but leave the door panel off. Close up the car, hop in and listen for anything. I heard nothing after I used some caulking around some of the trap door openings (you'll see), and some well-placed deadener.

However, the door panels is going crazy at those levels. You'll find as you tear into the panel, that it is too flexible, like two different pieces of plastic put together and they vibrate against each other at the bottom by the map/water bottle pocket. That's my next area of concern for sure.

 

Hey Lanson - since the MS-8 sums the signal, if you adjust the factory EQ, which changes the MS-8 input signal, does it change the output? Or will the MS-8 auto-correct it?

 

you can use the factory head unit's EQ to do adjustments, and per the testing I've done (thread in this forum somewhere), each EQ bump up and down is predictable. The "curves" of the EQ bumps are centered fairly well too.

But I don't use them (though I could), I use the MS-8's EQ and tone settings instead.

the Ms-8 can't EQ correct on the fly. It only does it initially when you first set it up.

 

Hey head's up, a fellow DIYMA forum member has an MS-8 for sale.

This would be a rare opportunity if someone wants to build a system similar to mine in design

JBL MS-8 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

 

@lance. thanks for the ongoing posts and answers. very insightful.

was curious how you selected the "Image Dynamics X69" for front door? I see description as "mid-bass" driver.

I'm assuming signal sent to speaker has High-pass filter applied? what is approx cut-off -- 1khz -- to avoid excessive bass and resonance in door? I see this as #1 complaint of OEM Alpine system that I'm looking to resolve.
Does the driver just ignore the higher frequencies after HPF (as it obviously can't reproduce 20khz, for example).

Is there anything wrong with using a two-way 6x9 (with onboard tweeter) and HPF? will the high frequencies from 6x9 conflict with the output of dash tweeters and create some type of cancellation or something? I thought this was only possible on mid- and lower frequencies.

pls forgive my obvious ignorance... -GA

 

So my front stage (left and right anyway) are Alpine SPX PRO tweeters (or a replica, there's some debate over that on another forum, but I digress), and the Image Dynamics X69 mid-bass woofers. The X69's have no separate tweeter, they are woofers only. Not to over-complicate it, the X69 is one of the best 6x9 woofers made currently, which is why I went for them. If a coaxial speaker was in contention for being one of the best, I wouldn't have a problem going with them but most high-end speakers are separates. The land of high-end 6x9's is extremely sparse right now though. Since I'm using a tweeter in the factory location, I'm covering the entire range I need to have for the front stage. They are crossed as follows in the MS-8 processor: 75hz High-pass, and 3.15kHz low-pass. These are both steep 24dB/octave slopes. The tweeters I've picked out take over from there. I could play lower (and plan to), but I need to deaden the door much more to get the resonance issue under control.

Now to answer the question about coaxial 6x9's and whether there's anything wrong with them, no definitely there's not. But high end (meaning, extremely low distortion, extremely high output, and excellent frequency response) 6x9's, as I was saying, are very sparse. Audiofrog is probably the only other 6x9 I would even consider on my build. If you were to run coaxials in the door, it would be smart to disable the tweeter, or run a crossover point in the 2.5k-3.5kHz range and let a tweeter up high take over. I wouldn't recommend they both "work" at the same time at the same frequency, this can introduce cancellation/phase issues and specifically comb-filtering is what I was thinking as the worst-case scenario. It would manifest as a bunch of "combs" in the response, and sound pretty nasty. Steep slopes reduces driver interaction, which is why I try to go with them (within reason.)

Your thoughts aren't from ignorance, this is really good thinking/planning right here. I can show you an ignorant build. A guy on the Flex forums (my old car prior to upgrading to the Durango) was showing off his build. He's gone nuts just adding drivers! There's massive components in the pillars, a huge center channel (not a bad thing actually), woofers in the door, woofers in the front kick panels, tweeters all over the place. I tried explaining that comb-filtering is likely going to make this a nightmare, explained how either making arrays or simply paring down to less drivers would be smart, etc... But no, he just added drivers. There's enough equipment to build 3 cars, and not ONE processor in all that mess.



Anyway, let's go over those frequencies some. 1kHz definitely shouldn't be a nasty resonance point, but the lower registers (65-80hz) affects the door big-time. According to my plots/measurements, the front woofers (stock) are playing nearly full-range, and are really pushing themselves, and the door panels too much. That resonance issue you mentioned, that's what we're talking about. I have waterfall plots showing this resonance in the doors, showing how the panels are over-worked. If you want to see it happen for yourself (and understand it to make changes), download Room EQ Wizard (totally legit-free) and run a 1/8" phone jack to your aux-in on the head unit. Run the tone generator (sine-wave) slowly through the frequency band, and you'll be able to tell at what frequencies parts of the vehicle resonates, and note them. For instance, the spoiler will resonate at one point, the doors another, etc. Note them, deaden/seal/foam decouple (separate) the parts, and you can start to get rid of them.

 

Potential game-changer product (maybe) on the way,

Audiofrog Gives Driver and Passengers an Audiophile Experience with New Multichannel Platform

Andy W. of Audiofrog is one of the people who used to work at Harman, who made the MS-8 possible.

Audiofrog is his own brand, MUCH higher-end.

 

Goals. Haha

Word on the box that he had in his car at CES was that it was in excess of $10k. Wonder what a production model that might not have integrated amplification would cost?

 

@Lanson,

This is an awesome thread.
Thanks for the time you took documenting everything.
This is a tremendous help for me trying to decide which way im going with my new audio setup on my 17rt when it is delivered.

Can i ask you to make a summary of speakers you have in each location and the wattage youre sending to each driver.

Will probably go all out and was looking at a 6-8ch amp but am not sure it is needed.
Space being limited id prefer to stick to one amp.
Looking to replace all speakers but might keep the oem sub enclosure and try to work around it.

 

Thanks, I'll do my best to summarize the power and speaker flow here:

Front door woofers - Image Dynamics X69 midbass
Front door tweeters - Alpine SPX PRO (or replicas, there's debate about that on another forum) tweeters
Center - Wavecor 3.5" 4 ohm full-range driver (AWESOME speaker)
Rear doors - completely stock
D-pillars - completely stock
Subs - Sundown SD3

Power structure - 4 amps
Massive NX4 pair, one is running bridged to the front woofers (rated at 400x2 bridged), the other is NX4 is running the center (bridged), and the front tweeters. So that's 400x1 and 100x2. There is also a tiny Power Acoustik amp that powers the rear doors and D-pillars all together off 2 channels of input. That amp is rated at 130x4 but that's definitely more like a maximum number given the amp rating of the fuse, but it is fine for the application. The sub amp is a Massive N3, 800x1 (in 2 ohm config.) With all of these amps, these "RMS" power ratings are pretty useless to me, because I'm not pushing any of this very hard, and I'm pretty sure Massive overrates some of their gear a bit. I'm 100% sure Power Acoustik does. Certainly, I am not lacking in amplifier power though.

Does that give you what you are after?

 

Yeah, Lanson's comment is right on. Mine is setup as a stereo configuration with a 3-way active front stage. The 6 speakers up front are time aligned to create a phantom center over the middle of the dash but it is setup for the listening position to be in the driver's seat. I am not using any rear signals from the UConnect to feed audio into my processors and in turn the amps, front speakers and subs. The only signals that go into the aftermarket gear are those from the tweeters and woofer signals from the front door speakers.

Joc17RT, you are asking about audio coming out of the rear entertainment system and not having any experience with it I couldn't say how exactly it would work for you. All I could say was that if it was played by the rear speakers (as I assume it would be) then my method of wiring wouldn't disable that functionality. You just need to adjust the fader when it is in use. Furthermore, since I have a separate volume control over the front speakers, if any of the audio from the rear entertainment was being sent to the front speakers that could be turned down, or muted, with that volume knob without affecting the rear speakers at all.

Lanson, I haven't updated my build log in a while but I have moved the mids from the PVC pods that I built and into the kickpanels. Right now they are in wood baffles that are bolted to the plastic kick panels. I am not ready yet to fiberglass them but they are at least hard mounted with all wiring tucked behind panels. Thus far, I am quite pleased with the sound. I have a very deep and wide listening stage. Sound is at least as wide as the limits of the car's interior. With most vocals the sound is placed just over the center of the dash. Intensity of certain instruments pulls the center down and to the driver's side. Still working on level adjustments and keep tweaking things every couple of days. I did have a mishap with my PPi mids and they are not in the car right now. Instead I am running an older pair of Hybrid Legatia L3v1's that I had from a previous build. Midbass has really come in well and blends great with the subs. Aside from some tactile cues from the driver's seat, kick drums appear to come from the dash. I haven't done any EQ thus far. Adjustments have been primarily in levels, crossover points and time alignment. Still need a mic before I can begin to EQ.

 

Yeah, Lanson's comment is right on. Mine is setup as a stereo configuration with a 3-way active front stage. The 6 speakers up front are time aligned to create a phantom center over the middle of the dash but it is setup for the listening position to be in the driver's seat. I am not using any rear signals from the UConnect to feed audio into my processors and in turn the amps, front speakers and subs. The only signals that go into the aftermarket gear are those from the tweeters and woofer signals from the front door speakers.

Joc17RT, you are asking about audio coming out of the rear entertainment system and not having any experience with it I couldn't say how exactly it would work for you. All I could say was that if it was played by the rear speakers (as I assume it would be) then my method of wiring wouldn't disable that functionality. You just need to adjust the fader when it is in use. Furthermore, since I have a separate volume control over the front speakers, if any of the audio from the rear entertainment was being sent to the front speakers that could be turned down, or muted, with that volume knob without affecting the rear speakers at all.
QUOTE]

Dont you think that in my case it would be easier to send all signals to the dsp and tune the system with the fader more foward.
When needed i guess i could play with the fader to give the rear more power.
Again my limitatation will be with the dsp tuning i think. I havent played with a dsp yet but suspect that they all are affected if you play with the volume and fader after tuning.

I'd really like to not have to play with two master volume..!

 

Love this thread. Thanks so much for the info.

I have a 2011 With the Alpine system. Currently all stock.

Subscribed to the Tidal HiFi service and it really sounds good. But.....

Would it be worth it to upgrade just the speakers? Maybe even just the Wavecor center speaker to start? Do you think I would hear a different with just that speaker change? Then later on, add the processor and amps.

I only ask, because this would be a progressive upgrade. If there would be no difference, then I would probably not do it at all.

Again, great thread!!

 

Hmm...well I'm not sure how it would turn out, but you could certainly try it. If you ordered a connector that matched, you could swap them back and forth. Or just cut and hope, like I did. Wavecor or Fountek would be what I'd consider good options. Also GR Research LGK1.0, not sure it would fit but I'd love to have time and try them all.

If you deaden the front doors heavily, and upgrade the speakers (like a component 6x9 set), I'm sure it would sound a little better. Hell, even just deadening and then putting it all back together would probably sound good.

 

Any heat problems when you're putting multiple amps under that rear deck? Especially when keeping the stock lid?

 

Sorry, didn't see this question before. Yes, heat is a concern and I've been keeping an eye on it. However, nothing has overheated so far. I'm still rebuilding the system without the lid (after it cools down...weather is a problem at the moment but it will cool down soon.)

 

Guys,

About the sound deadening material, how many sq feet did you need ?

I still have some Raam BXT and Ensolite but not sure i have enough.
Not planning on going crazy but use it where its really needed, seems the oem insulation is already pretty good.

 

The OEM deadening in the doors was falling off when I got to it. There was a super-thin piece of material which looked like a kindergarten-grade version of my Knu Kolossus stuff. Same basic makeup, but playschool level grade. Needless to say, I'd disagree with you on the OEM being pretty good. Anyway, Just order a bulk pack at Knu Kno Knoise Kolossus Edition Car Kit 35sq ft - Merchandise and it should do the doors, the trunk area (underneath is where I went), and the back gate area. You can decide from there if more is needed. I need to get back in my doors and double my efforts, I can tell you that much.

If you need an alternative to Knu, go with www.sounddeadenershowdown.com and Don has probably the best product. I just save a little bit with Knu but it is pretty close, all-in.

 

@Lanson
Time to revive this glorious thread
I have now received all my compoents except the processor (still waiting on the AC DM810 or maybe the Adison bit one HD but $$$)
I will have 13 channels of amplification provided by JL XD800 and JL XD700.
Received the Alpine tweeters (or a great copy) and they sure look good quality especially for the price.
Also got XS69 and Wavecor center.

I have a couple of questions I couldn't find a clear answer after having read the entire thread for the x time ..lol

Mine is a 17RT but suspect the wiring is the same.
Do you have a wiring diagrams you could share for the Alpine amplifier as well as for the various connectors ?
Couldn't find anything online so far.

Regarding the Alpine amplifier output, did you cut the wires and ran new wires everywhere from your amps or you used the oem wires from the back to get the newly amplified signals to the speakers ?
Some of your pics are showing the oem wires so am wondering.
It sure would make the job easier to only splice into the oem wires after the Alpine amp.

Did you find any signals not going trough the Alpine amp (rear warning tone, phone, nav)

Cant wait to start.

 

I know there are the OEM amp wiring pinouts and diagrams on here so I'm searching for them........in case anyone has them handy, can you forward them on or re-post here? Thanks!!

Great work here, Lanson....I'm about to start on mine and do something similar, but different.



Turborusty

 

Sounds good! I'm waiting for the temps to rise and the sun to stay in the sky long enough in a day for me to rebuild mine. Spring time you'll probably see a re-do of epic proportions. The equipment is all good, its just the format I need to perfect.

 

I'm using an Audio Control DM-810 to interface with mine. First time using anything of the sort. And Soundstream Picasso Nano amps.

Any info on where to locate the amp wiring diagrams? I haven't been on this forum in likely 6-8 months.

Thanks again!

 

Time for a little update to my system. I started noticing scratchiness in the coils on both of my speakers up front, and well... that's not how I roll. I think the Image Dynamics X69's I have are prone to rusting from the inside, so flakes of debris like rust particles get stuck in the coil gap and are almost impossible to remove. They are only about 2 years old and I live in the desert, so I'm definitely not going to trust ID for door speakers again. I decided to upgrade, but I didn't want to give up the 6x9 size. I ended up talking with one of my audio buddies on the forums and he set me up with Audiofrog GS690 front woofers. And while we were talking it through, I decided to try a new tweeter to match, the GS10. Now my Alpine SPX tweeters are just fine, but sometimes you just have to try a matching stage to see what the designer's plan was, so that's what I did Here's some pics

GS10's

GS690's

The door back apart. Comment: Dodge makes DAMN fine doors for the Durango at least. I think its the Mercedes thing rubbing off, because these doors have been taken apart and put back together at least 5 times, and they are still drum-tight, all clips work, etc. I just love that, some car doors can barely come apart once before you have to replace clips left and right.
Lots of deadening on these doors, always chasing rattles until they die.

These are the GS690's. What a gorgeous design, no rear vent so they won't be a susceptible to weather damage like the ID's I think. In fact, Audiofrog speakers (made by Andy Wehmeyer, maker of my JBL MS-8, for example) seem built from the ground up to survive in car audio conditions. We'll see over time, but I have a lot of respect for Andy and his designs, so I'm sure they'll be great.

Well...that was easy!

This will get a bit more difficult. This is the hole that I had to hog out for my SPX tweeters to fit the factory spot. This has doomed these panels, because the AF tweeters are just mm's smaller.

They totally fit, but the cutout is just about a mm too big.

I decided to press fowrard with the rebuild, I'll order up some replacement panels later. I added some 1/8" neoprene to the door panel while I was in there.

Other side of the door ready to go already

Other side done as well

So just playing them with the tune the ID's have, I can tell I already like these a LOT. I need to recal the MS-8 so these speaker's response is better matched with the rest of the system, but it is already very close. The ID's were really flat, clean, and efficient speakers as well so I expect minimal changres. I might even just redo the EQ without recalibrating the whole system over again, if I can just do that.

So far, really enjoy these speakers, and highly recommend them for our ride! Get the component set with the crossover if you have no intention of going active like I have here, or you can upgrade to an even better tweeter (the GB10) if you want to, but I wanted to try the matched GS set before considering that and I'm glad I've made this choice so far. Its clear that no corners were cut making either set.

 

Bummed to hear the ID's didn't hold up. I've only heard good things about Audiofrog, but boy are they proud of them. Guess you get what you pay for.

 

They are much cheaper than ID though, to be fair.

 

Lanson - digging up an old one, but did you ever switch to a down fire box?

 

This old post looks very interesting but the images are all broken. Any way to get those back?

 

If you're talking about the pics in post #144 I can see all of them.

 

Those are good, I'm looking a couple pages back on post #67. That's where all of the pics of taking apart the dash and doors are.