Yeah, he was saying the annealing line should be right at the weld, but the line on mine is a good distance from it. I just wonder if adding more timing would up the cylinder pressure beyond what I would want with a stock bottom end.

I did hear from Jon (Moored Performance) today and he said HP Tuners got some of the torque switches reversed in VCM Editor. He said he would take a look at my tune and log, so I shot it over. Dave is still suggesting changes as well, so I hope to have a nicely dialed in tune after a bit more time.

Then I'll replace the plugs with the spare set I have on hand, and read them after a few miles. If the line is still in the same place, I don't think I'd want a colder plug. If the line moves to or beyond the weld, then yeah, It seems I could step down a heat range.

 

I think the read needs to be a WOT run when you are ready on fresh ones without cruising for optimum results. HPTuners got some settings reversed? Wow. Keep us updated.

 

Bigger hotter bang, higher pressure. 8 PSI on the 5.7 with optimized timing and AFR should be OK, just leave some wiggle room if something gets out of tune.

8PSI boost on a stock 6.4L (kaboom, not recommended):
The block and forged crank are good to 1000+ but the stock compression and pistons are optimized for NA (not boost friendly). Sure you can drop a Whipple kit on a 6.4L, and run low boost at 6PSI (not recommended). Running that low boost and adding risk does not seem worth it on the 6.4L, unless you go with forged pistons & rods with higher boost levels.

Sure, you could lower the compression with thicker head gaskets and open the ring gap. Why? (rhetorical).

Once you already have the pistons out to re-gap the rings, just go forged. Drop-in forged piston & rod kits for a boosted 6.4L setup will run on pump gas and are much stronger. The pistons lower the compression without a need to change head gasket thickness from stock gaskets.

 

There is no such thing as a drop in piston : )

 

Did you eat paint chips as a child?

 

Hmmmm not sure if your referring to something really exotic or a high-mileage engine that was over heated…

I have built a few engines before and cylinder bore size is: standard, .020, .030, .040, .060 etc. So just order the piston based on your engine block bore size. Same for crank and rod bearings which again are usually: standard, .010, .020, etc. depending if you need to grind the crank or rod journals downs due to wear or damage.

Once you have the piston and you measure the cylinder bore with bore gauge to make sure it’s not distorted, Then you measure your ring gaps with feeler gauge and file to preferred clearance.

Finish the cylinders with a honing tool which will make a cross hatch pattern for the new rings to seat once engine is started and brought to appropriate temperature.

I know some of the newer LS aluminum blocks with iron cylinder sleeves are not centered from the factory but not sure how the Hemi is designed or constructed since I have yet to tear one down.

 

Yes, same with the bearings. The crankshaft goes inside the bearings just like the piston goes inside the bore. You START OFF WITH your finished crankshaft with its dimensions and THEN you order bearings. When the bearing show up you put the mains in the block and the rods in the rods. You torque the bolts and you measure inside diameter of each. Then you use what is referred to as “math” to calculate your clearance. You have already determined your desired clearance by a bunch of factors that I’m not gonna get into here, but you do the math and if a bearing is tight you open it up until it’s right. If it’s too loose you order an underside bearing and repeat the process. This is not exotic. This is called blueprinting. Engine building 101a

A good engine builder does not order the bearings and just hope they fit. And he does not not order a crankshaft to fit the bearings. He starts off with a good crankshaft that he’s measured, and he makes the hole what it needs to be.

There is absolutely no such thing as a drop in piston

 

Math? What is this sorcery you’re referring to?

 

So we've about 25k miles on it now (~12-13k or so with the Whipple) and the wife said it was acting weird today. So I took a couple of logs and knock sensor 2 is acting up, really only during light throttle though. The voltage on the sensor is spiking, up to 4.9v at times ... so I don't think it's false knock. Seems something is setting the sensor off.

Below is a video I took of it idling, and I can hear something on the passenger side. Maybe a lifter going out, and at idle and light throttle, it's not pumping up enough ... but under moderate throttle, the increased oil pressure resolves it??

Not sure ... more to investigate.

 

My Hemi has that same tick/tap since day one.

 

What viscosity oil are you using and with engine hot, what is the oil pressure at idle? Did you check your oil level and on level ground (some people have driveways with a steep incline). My oil pressure went low once so I immediately checked the oil level and it was low when parked on a steep incline, just enough to cause air entry or cavitation.

I have all factory non-MDS lifters with the MDS delete and a performance pump where the oil pressure does not go below 60 psi at idle.

If you swap the sensors, does the knock move with the sensor?

 

never mind on the knock sensor. I just played the video and hear the knock, ouchy. AFR and trims look great. How many miles on the current oil? I got 60K on my 5.7L before the valve seat dropped and took out the engine on my 2017. The cam and lifters were like new with no issues on the tear down. Can't imagine a lifter issue on your almost new model with only 25K miles. I got about 40K with supercharger and higher boost with no lifter or cam issues. Could you have a loose exhaust manifold with leaking gasket? Just hoping. 😢

 

From the video it sounds like the typical “Hemi Tick” which is more pronounced on some vehicles than others.

I remembered you were working on getting the tune perfected & updated… have you succeeded? Does the vehicle run strong from idle to high RPM? Any surging or bucking while driving? Does that noise increase or decrease on acceleration?

If your registering “Knock” then back track what triggers it… spark plugs, A/F, ignition timing & coils, sensor failure, carbon in the combustion chamber/valves, bad gas, engine harmonics, etc. What cylinder(s) does knock sensor 2 cover?

 

What viscosity oil are you using and with engine hot, what is the oil pressure at idle? Did you check your oil level and on level ground (some people have driveways with a steep incline). My oil pressure went low once so I immediately checked the oil level and it was low when parked on a steep incline, just enough to cause air entry or cavitation.

I have all factory non-MDS lifters with the MDS delete and a performance pump where the oil pressure does not go below 60 psi at idle.

If you swap the sensors, does the knock move with the sensor?

Running the standard 0w-20 oil. Changed at dealer about 7k miles or so ago. It's been on my list to do again, just haven't had time. The mighty mouse catch can has been on for a while now, and it does collect quite a bit. I checked the level last night and it was a little low, but still reading within the "good" area on the stick. I was going to throw a quart in later this morning to see if it has an impact, but considering I have a drain valve on it .. I think I'll just change it out completely.

What would you recommend for a stock 5.7L with boost? I thought 0w-20 would be good considering the internals are all OEM, but maybe there is a better option.

never mind on the knock sensor. I just played the video and hear the knock, ouchy. AFR and trims look great. How many miles on the current oil? I got 60K on my 5.7L before the valve seat dropped and took out the engine on my 2017. The cam and lifters were like new with no issues on the tear down. Can't imagine a lifter issue on your almost new model with only 25K miles. I got about 40K with supercharger and higher boost with no lifter or cam issues. Could you have a loose exhaust manifold with leaking gasket? Just hoping. 😢

Yeah, AFR, trims, KR, misfires, etc ... are all really great now and dialed in nicely. This KR showing up was kind of sudden. I ordered an automotive stethoscope for delivery today, so will probe deeper when it gets here. Would be nice if it's as simple as oil being overdue for change causing a lifter to be lazy, or something else triggering the knock sensor ... although I swear I heard pinging last night when I was logging ... tough to tell though, as the cabin is pretty quiet. Makes it tough to hear if there's pinging or not.

My Hemi has that same tick/tap since day one.

Yeah, it has had a bit of that since new as well. Maybe the knock sensor acting up is unrelated to the noise? Let's hope so!

From the video it sounds like the typical “Hemi Tick” which is more pronounced on some vehicles than others.

I remembered you were working on getting the tune perfected & updated… have you succeeded? Does the vehicle run strong from idle to high RPM? Any surging or bucking while driving? Does that noise increase or decrease on acceleration?

If your registering “Knock” then back track what triggers it… spark plugs, A/F, ignition timing & coils, sensor failure, carbon in the combustion chamber/valves, bad gas, engine harmonics, etc. What cylinder(s) does knock sensor 2 cover?

The tune is dialed in very nicely now. It's been running great since I learned how and what to do myself.

It's been running strong from idle to redline ... the sudden appearance of the knock seems to be happening mostly under light throttle now, although I haven't really pushed it since it began. I definitely don't want to be pushing 8psi of boost if a lifter collapses completely.

But looking at the logs, the knock sensor voltage seems to calms down when I increase the load and RPM. It's another indicator to me maybe I have a lifter which is on the edge, and it's being affected by oil pressure.

The vehicle will sometimes buck when the KR suddenly pulls timing. The wife said it "was shifting weird", but when I pressed on what she meant, she said it was jerking. My son was in the car with her, and he said "it's like when you're walking and one foot accidentally catches on the other and makes you stumble ... it felt like that". I thought that was a great description of what a knock event would feel like with the timing being suddenly pulled.

Can't tell if the noise increases or decreases, as you can't really hear it in the cabin. If I can't isolate further with the stethoscope, I may buy some chassis ears.

Could be a bad tank of gas I suppose? The wife did recently fill up, but did so at our regular place with 93 octane. Maybe winter blend junk? Although I would think both banks would have an issue.

Maybe it's a combination of crap fuel, oil overdue to changing, a weak lifter, etc ....

 

Stoo if it is a lifter wont the MDS throw a code?

Consider doing an LOF, pull the plugs on that bank and add some octane booster or additive to the tank.

 

Stoo if it is a lifter wont the MDS throw a code?

Consider doing an LOF, pull the plugs on that bank and add some octane booster or additive to the tank.

I don't think MDS would throw a code as MDS is disabled in my tune. It's risky to run MDS in a boosted application, so I never even considered turning it back on.

The oil is already drained, and I'm currently waiting for the filter to finish dripping before fully removing it. I have a new K&N performance oil filter and 7 qts of Castrol EDGE Full Synthetic 0w-20 to go in.

I also have 16 new plugs on hand. If the issue persists with the new oil, I'll pull the plugs and inspect.

Trying higher octane is a good idea, although I've heard octane booster in a bottle is mostly snake oil. Not sure how much it will increase the octane of ~20 gallons of 93?

 

Hmm, I haven't cracked the bottles of 0w-20 yet ... Maybe I should go swap it?

 

You could always go 5w-30? I ran that in my old DD and 297k she was running perfect when traded in… once I a my out of 3/36 that’s what I am switching too.

I also run 5w-30 Mobile 1 in my Mustang GT. 120k and runs like wild horse.

 

So with work being as busy as it is, I just went ahead and put the 0w20 in as I don't have time to run out and swap it. I bought the stuff online for pickup, and had the wife pick it up earlier today while she was out and about (I'm having her use my GTO until I figure this out). So I've been trying to give the Durango some attention at lunch and between meetings (which isn't a lot of time!)

So I put the K&N filter on (after pre-filling it), and put 7qts in. I took the oil which I drained, and put it into the containers the new oil came in. Only 5 qts and then maybe 1/8th of a quart seems to have come out. Which is really odd, considering the dip stick was reading about 1/4 way up the bullet (so still in the normal range) when I checked last night. I even marked the 5qt jug with a sharpie to where it was filled when new, so I would be sure to measure correctly when pouring the old oil in.

Checking it now, after filling with 7qts, the line is at the very top of the little bullet at the end of the dipstick. So does that little bullet really represent 2qts of oil? I have to say it does after this experience. I expected it to represent 1qt, and thus felt like maybe I was 1/2 or 3/4 qts low ... not almost 2 full qts.

I started it up and it sounds normal. No time to take it for a drive right now, but will do so after work today. I'm guessing (hoping) it will all be back to normal though.

In my GTO, I used to run an extra quart of oil on the track (road course racing) to prevent starvation during high G cornering. I wonder if the 5.7L can run 8 qts without negative impacts?

 

So the knock sensor voltage looks like it's mostly back to normal, but knock retard is still happening quite a bit. I did get a few spikes in voltage above 3v, but it was on sensor 1 this time.

After changing the oil, I reloaded my latest tune file (I had reverted to a previous version to see if it was tune related), then cleared adaptives and went for a drive to Autozone for a few things. On the way there, knock sensor 1 spiked a few times, but nothing like what I was seeing in the previous logs. On the way back, it didn't do this, and things looked more normal .... although as stated, still seeing a lot of KR happening.

I know long term knock retard in these PCMs is a learning function, but I thought flashing a new tune and resetting adaptives would reset it. Maybe it doesn't, or ... I still have something going on here.

I finally got my fuel pressure sending unit piped and wired in, so I now have that hooked up. So the next log I take, I'll be able to verify fuel pressure isn't an issue (ie: The fuel pump boost-a-pump module isn't failing) ... although if it were a fuel pressure issue, I'd think I would see it in either the AFR or the injector duty cycle. At idle, fuel pressure is reading 61 psi, which seems right. Will check it under load later tonight.

 

When you change the plugs you might want to check cranking pressure. I pulled the top ring land on an LS one time and I could barely hear anything, but I was getting a lot of false KR from it.

 

Yeah, next step is to pull the plugs.

So I just took a log with the fuel pressure sender now hooked up through the ProLink+, and the fuel pressure looks fine to me. Lowest it got was 56psi under WOT.

I can't really make sense of what is causing the knock sensor voltage to jump like it is.

If anyone is skilled at reading logs, here it is: Stoops Knocking Log

 

There's a Sunoco station about an hour from me which carries 100 octane, maybe I'll drive out there tomorrow evening and fill it up ... that would rule out a bad tank of gas.

 

What is your "oil" pressure at hot idle with the new oil and now at the full level? I would use that as a baseline if the ticking happens again to at least eliminate oil pressure. If your AFR is still good without cutback under boost the fuel pressure and enrichment is probably good.

 

Oil pressure, at idle with engine up to temp, is in the mid 40's and AFR seems good.

Tonight I went out to pick up dinner for the family, and decided to swing into Autozone and grab some octane booster while I was out; and since the Durango was at 3/4 of a tank, I ran over to the neighboring Valero station and topped the tank off with 93 octane. It took 7 gallons.

Well, the knock is completely gone now. Part throttle, full throttle, low RPM/high load, high RPM WOT, etc, etc ... not a single degree of knock.

It's really looking like we got a bad tank of fuel. We always fill up at the same QT station ... but after this experience, I don't think we'll be using them anymore.

For the octane booster, I used a Lucas product ...

 

Great news. Keep us updated on your next fill up to confirm it is gone.

For a stock oil pump, 45psi is good at hot idle

 

Filled up a few days ago at the same place, and all seems good.

I threw a couple of bottles of the Lucas octane booster in the rear storage just to have on hand if it happens again in the future.

On a positive note, I continue to refine the tune and it’s running better than ever. Neural Network is enabled, and I’ve scaled it out to 14 neural nodes instead of the factory 6 nodes. It’s running extremely smooth, I’d say very much on par with how the Hellcat drove when I test drove it.

I tweaked some more of the torque management and VVT cam settings the past couple of days, and did a 0-60 test today. 4.97 seconds now.

the tip in is still delaying the throttle by almost a full second, so I think I can get it down to the mid 4’s without adding a bunch more risk.

I’m still not exceeding 8psi either. And latest logs show clean and clear … meaning no misfires and no knock retard.

 

Just thought I'd give an update since it's been a while .... New best 0-60 time today ... 4.714 seconds

I've been slowly tweaking the tune over time, and most recently overhauled the trans tune ... part of which included raising the 1-2 and 2-3 shift points from 5500 RPM to 5800 RPM. The boost during this 4.7 second run at 5800 RPM was 7.4psi. At 6k RPM, I'm pretty much right at 8psi, but I'm not sure if I want to be shifting at 6k RPM.

All in all, it's been running great! At 30k miles now (Whipple went on around 10k miles), and all is well

 

Just thought I'd give an update since it's been a while .... New best 0-60 time today ... 4.714 seconds

I've been slowly tweaking the tune over time, and most recently overhauled the trans tune ... part of which included raising the 1-2 and 2-3 shift points from 5500 RPM to 5800 RPM. The boost during this 4.7 second run at 5800 RPM was 7.4psi. At 6k RPM, I'm pretty much right at 8psi, but I'm not sure if I want to be shifting at 6k RPM.

All in all, it's been running great! At 30k miles now (Whipple went on around 10k miles), and all is well

Great to hear!!! I can't remember if you did anything at all to the engine, like a cam and DOD delete???

 

Lol......no.....and all I have is CAI, chip, U9 Throttle Controller and TB spacer. About to do a difff swap to 3.70. Then next phase will be a blower cam with DOD delete and long tube headers, then final stage.....whipple.

Guess I need to update my signature.......lol

 

Lol......no.....and all I have is CAI, chip, U9 Throttle Controller and TB spacer. About to do a difff swap to 3.70. Then next phase will be a blower cam with DOD delete and long tube headers, then final stage.....whipple.

Guess I need to update my signature.......lol

I can pile on but you just beat me...