Dodge Durango Forum banner
1 - 20 of 39 Posts

stoopalini

· Registered
'23 Durango R/T- TnG Supercharged
Joined
·
1,839 Posts
Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
Just thought I'd document what I'm doing to the rear cargo area to tone down the TnG exhaust a bit in the cabin.

Removing the panels is pretty straight forward and once removed, you can see what the "Premium" package gets you in terms of deadening and insulation.

The bottom of the carpet has insulation attached, but only under the seating area. You can't see in this pic because the carpet is folded over the 2nd row seats, but the area which lays across the cargo space does not have any insulation on it at all.

Image


Also notice in the above pic the strips of material which were added to the sheet metal by the factory. This is what I would call "Constraint Layer Damping" material, or CLD. It's purpose is to stiffen the sheet metal and reduce the tendency of the panel to resonate. Tapping along the floor with my finger does produce a resonant ring still though, so some additional CLD would be beneficial here.

Looking at the sides, you can see the sound blocking materials which are added to the wheel wells. This is a layer of insulation to act as a decoupling layer, then topped with mass loaded vinyl for sound blocking. I believe this is part of the "Premium" package's additional insulation.

Image


Image


The 1st step to this is to add some CLD to areas which resonate when tapped. So I added Second Skin's Damplifier product to the floor and to key areas in the corners. I basically tapped with my finger and where I heard resonance, I added some CLD. You don't need full coverage with CLD, as it is not sound blocking material, but it is meant to reduce the ability of a material from resonating. This is meant to stop noise by stopping resonating panels, not meant to stop sound waves themselves from passing through. Thus you just need to use enough to change the resonant frequency of the panel.

Image


I also added it to a few key areas in the corners:

Image


Image



While I was investigating things, I noticed the rear HVAC duct work rattled quite a bit due to the way the pieces are joined. So I took some Second Skin Overkill product (ie: closed cell foam, or CCF), and cut strips of it to line the inside of the ducts where they connect together to create a tight fit. Then I also added CCF strips to the metal body panels where the plastic ducts touch it, and finally added some CLD pieces to the ducts themselves to stiffen it up.

Initially when I tapped on the duct work, it would not only resonate but also made plastic rattling sounds. Now it's a dull "thud" when tapping with no resonant ring or rattles. I'd think this will reduce the fan noise, but maybe not? I just figured since I was here and had the materials on hand, might as well address it.

Image


I'm also looking for any places where objects may cause a rattle noise, and I'm adding CCF or butyl rope pieces to silence them. Here's an example ... this round piece is loosely connected to the panel and rattles quite a bit when tapping anywhere near it. So I added a piece of CCF to prevent any rattling .... BTW, anyone know what this cylinder thing is? It looks almost like a barometric pressure sensor

Image


Next step is to add a layer of Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) with a bonded layer of CCF to the floor space. This is Second Skin's "Luxury Liner Pro" product. This is what will actually block sound waves directly, so it's important to cover as much of the floor as feasibly possible.

Image



I'm hoping to tackle this sometime in the next day or two, as the wife really wants her interior back together :ROFLMAO:
 
Discussion starter · #2 ·
Reserved
 
Hey Stoop, what makes you think that the Premium Package gets you more sound deadening? I believe all DDs get the same amount. The only thing Premium is what you can touch.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Hey Stoop, what makes you think that the Premium Package gets you more sound deadening? I believe all DDs get the same amount. The only thing Premium is what you can touch.
I was basing it off of some pictures I saw of another owner doing something similar. I didn't see mass loaded vinyl on the wheel well, but maybe he had removed it already? Here is one of his pics:

Image



Then I also saw this in my build sheet:

Image


So I thought it was a premium package thing ... but now that I look at the comparison between the standard R/T and the Premium R/T, I see the premium insulation group is listed under Additional Interior Features on both of them:


Standard R/T:

Image




Premium R/T:

Image


So maybe there is no difference after all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ollie Crow
Hmm, you could be right then based off your build sheet. I have never heard of anyone or any literature speaking of it. I wonder if it's on the upgraded sound system vehicles?
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
I thought the chilton manual would highlight the difference in premium and base when it came to sound deadening material/locations but unfortunately it does not.

View attachment 129900
Does the Chilton's list "Sound Blocking" or "Sound Absorbing" materials as well as "Sound Deadening"? The stuff on the floor is CLD (ie: deadener) but the stuff on the wheel wells is MLV, which is sound blocking material.

Just curious if the manual makes a distinction, as the image you posted above is only showing the liquid deadener applied to the floor.
 
Does the Chilton's list "Sound Blocking" or "Sound Absorbing" materials as well as "Sound Deadening"? The stuff on the floor is CLD (ie: deadener) but the stuff on the wheel wells is MLV, which is sound blocking material.

Just curious if the manual makes a distinction, as the image you posted above is only showing the liquid deadener applied to the floor.
I found it under body, and sealer/sound deadening section. I know it shows where the foam and padding is placed but does not make a distinction between base and premium models.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Damn, that Luxury Liner foam insulation is expensive.
I thought it was very reasonable. I got the Luxury Liner Pro and the Damplifier for this project, with Black Friday 20% off, for a total of $216.

Image



That's actually cheap for quality sound treatment materials. Look up Resonix Noise Barrier if you want to be shocked at what this stuff can cost.

There are Amazon cheapie products out there, but they're pretty poor quality and tend to melt with the temps the inside of a car can see, and their performance is not up to the Second Skin levels. I always stick with Second Skin because I know it's quality material and they run 15% - 20% discounts a few times a year.
 
It irks me deeply because I know that stuff costs $0.10 a square foot to make, but once it's branded and sold at retail it costs $8 a square foot, plus shipping, and you say you got it on sale.
We used to get ripped off in the 80s with "Dynamat". Now this. I can tell you for certain, auto manufacturers that use similar materials pay nowhere near that much for it.
MLV sound deadener on its own sells for $100 for a 100 SQFT roll - a buck a square foot.
And the "Damplifier" looks a lot like Dynamat, but Amazon Basics has a line of similar foil-backed butyl rubber sound deadener for about 1/8th the price.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
I ended up finishing this project up last night.

I probably have maybe 1-2 sq/ft of MLV left over, so considering I bought 18 sq/ft of it, looks like it took 16-17 sq/ft to cover what's in these pics. Ideally there would be no gaps between the center piece and the small side pieces in the quarter panels, but I was worried about the side trim panels fitting back on, so I left a small gap to account for the interior panels.

In hind sight, I believe the trim panels would have fit even with the MLV spanning the entire rear though and it would have been better to do so considering the mufflers are under the rear quarters.

Image


The foam on the MLV compresses quite a bit when needed, so the 3rd row seats didn't have a problem bolting up with the material squished between the frame and the seat brackets. The two mounting bolts on the front of the 3rd row seat had blue loctite on them from the factory, so I reapplied blue loctite to them when I reinstalled.



Image



Image


The circle to go around the rear HVAC is 5 1/2" in diameter. Also in this area, there is a soft plastic panel filling a hole in the sheet metal behind the HVAC unit. This panel was not seated and sealed from the factory, but was flopping around loosely back there. It took some careful manipulation with my fingertips to get the panel to lock into the channels and finally seal up. You can't see the panel I'm referencing in the pic above, but if you feel back there with your fingers, you'll find it. It's fairly large and covers the entire area behind the HVAC unit.


Image


The panel I describe above is similar to the one shown in this picture.The flexible plastic has a groove cut in the perimeter and it locks onto the sheet metal. I actually took this one on the driver's side completely out and had a look inside. I also applied some CLD to the inside of the exterior quarter panel since it was easy enough when the plastic panel was removed.


Image


Image


Image



With the carpet laid back in place, I proceeded to reinstall everything. Side panels 1st, then the 3rd row seat, then the subwoofer and cargo compartment. Everything went back together pretty easily, even with the thick MLV under it all.

I finished around 10:30pm last night and took it for a quick test drive afterward. Just a 2 mile quick drive. It's definitely quieter, especially under part throttle and cruise. The bast way to describe it is I now only hear the exhaust from the back of the vehicle, not from under the vehicle.

Before the treatment, the exhaust sound would emanate from under the 3rd row seat and was much louder in all situations ... now it comes from the tailgate area only, most likely through the glass. For example, a one gear downshift when cruising is now just a low rumble where as before it was a lot more pronounced. But when you go WOT, the noise coming through the rear hatch is still that great tone the TnG exhaust has! :)

In the end, I'm very glad I did this and feel it was worth the couple hundred dollars and 5 or so hours of my time it cost me. It's one more improvement which makes the driving experience just a little better.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
1. How much weight did you add with that sound deadening?
The CLD weighs 0.35lb/sqft ... I used 6.5 sheets of the CLD and each sheet is 2 sqft.
So additional weight from sound deadening is 4.55lbs

The MLV weighs 1.25lb/sqft ... I used ~16 sqft of it, so 20lbs in MLV.
So added weight from both sound deadening and sound blocking materials is about 25 lbs.

2. Did it make an appreciable difference in noise abatement, NVH, and ride quality?
Yes, No and No.

It reduced the exhaust noise coming from under the vehicle.
I had/have no NVH concerns about the vehicle in stock form. It's very quiet as it is with no noticeable rattles or otherwise unexpected noises.
Not sure what you mean by ride quality ... 25lbs isn't enough to affect the way the vehicle rides if that's what you mean?


3. Can you still get stupid at wide open throttle and hear it?
Yes, this is what I meant by my statements in the previous post:

It's definitely quieter, especially under part throttle and cruise. The bast way to describe it is I now only hear the exhaust from the back of the vehicle, not from under the vehicle.

Before the treatment, the exhaust sound would emanate from under the 3rd row seat and was much louder in all situations ... now it comes from the tailgate area only, most likely through the glass. For example, a one gear downshift when cruising is now just a low rumble where as before it was a lot more pronounced. But when you go WOT, the noise coming through the rear hatch is still that great tone the TnG exhaust has! :)
 
Wild timing - I literally did almost this exact same thing last week. I went with 200mil Siless Hybrid:


I used almost all 50 sqf, and it definitely made a very noticeable difference. I'm considering doing MLV as well, but for now, I'll spend time doing the rest of the car and go from there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stoopalini
Discussion starter · #18 ·
Wild timing - I literally did almost this exact same thing last week. I went with 200mil Siless Hybrid:


I used almost all 50 sqf, and it definitely made a very noticeable difference. I'm considering doing MLV as well, but for now, I'll spend time doing the rest of the car and go from there.
Nice. The product you used has a thin layer of MLV already on it, as it's a 3-in-1 product.

I've been a member of "The Deadening" group on Facebook for a while now, which is dedicated to sound treatment materials, where the guy who started the group tests various product. I joined when I tackled my GTO a few years back. I went deep into that car, much more than the Durango. But it also didn't have much to start with and is older.


I can't find the heat testing results right now, but here's a screen shot of the overall damping test results:

Image



Based on effectiveness and cost, I typically stick with Second Skin stuff because I know it'll perform well, will last a lifetime in the hot car (I'm in Texas), and can be had for reasonable cost when they run their sales.

The heat testing Chris did showed product failure in a lot of the cheaper brands at temps easily reached in a vehicle. When the product fails, it not only stops performing its damping function but also melts and causes a goopy mess behind the panels. Kilmat is one which comes to mind ... I don't remember if Siless was one of those which melted or not, but most of the cheaper product on Amazon are actually made by STP, just branded and sold under different logos.

Here's an example of Stinger Roadkill which failed in a door:




Here's a picture of failed Soundskin 3-in-1 product:

Image



Here's a batch of Knu Kolossus which actually melted in someone's storage, never even got a chance to apply it to his car (thankfully!)

Image



I didn't want to take any chance of something like this happening in either my GTO or the Durango, so I stick with Second Skin for the assurance.


That group has a wealth of information in it, so long as you can see past the attitudes of some of the members (ie: some of the small company owners who push their product). But the group Admin (Chris) has built a competent test rig and is really good at objective testing.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
I finally got a chance to go for a longer drive last night, about 40 mins of mixed driving ... some 75+ mph highway and some local stop and go roads.

I am VERY pleased with the results! There's a lot more muting/blocking of noise than I initially realized. Overall road noise is definitely reduced, and the exhaust is just perfect now inside the cabin. There are no fatiguing artifacts anymore.

Cruising with maintenance throttle, just to maintain speed, and you barely hear the exhaust. I would say it's actually quieter than our old 2016 R/T was at cruise. With a slight throttle, you still don't really hear it. What you do hear is a low deep rumbling tone, so it's a pleasant non-obtrusive tone. When downshifting early, like coming to a stop in track mode, it's a very muted and subdued sound as well. So casual driving provides a much more refined experience than before the treatments.

When romping on the gas though, and spinning the motor up, you do still hear the awesome bark of that exhaust coming through. It is more refined sounding, but still the same guttural raw tone just without some of the piercing higher frequencies making it into the cabin.

I imagine the lack of a spare tire along with lack of any insulation over the cargo area, had the two mufflers resonating the floor panel between them, where the spare tire would normally be. This resonation was most likely traveling forward along the floor, which is why it sounded like the exhaust noise was coming from the floor prior to the treatments. It would come from under the 2nd and 3rd row seats. I initially thought it may have been the suitcase muffler but I now realize it's not, as it's completely gone after doing this work; so it must have been the rear mufflers' sound passing through and vibrating the floor.

I would definitely do this again, in a heartbeat. If our Durango was totaled tomorrow and we got a new TnG, I would absolutely tear into the new one and repeat my work here. Even if it cost me 20% more in materials.

One other comment about this .... When I had the interior apart, I also removed the 10" subwoofer speaker from the sealed plastic enclosure and added 6oz of polyfill to it, then reinstalled the speaker. The polyfill, along with the sound treatments, has significantly improved the bass response of the Harman Kardon system. The wife and I both commented on it last night during our drive, as we were jamming some music for part of that drive.

When cruising now, I am mainly hearing wind noise around the front door seams and the side mirrors. I didn't notice this as much before, when the exhaust was so intrusive ... but do hear it more prominent now. I will probably dig into it a bit deeper sometime in the future to see if I can improve it any.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bb37
This is all very interesting. Per your last paragragh, our '16 is light years quieter than any vehicle we have owned and we have never noticed wind noise at all. How quiet this car is inside still amazes us. But maybe we are still tuned out from all the other cars we've owned.
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts