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Thoughts on 2023 Harman Kardon system?

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stoopalini

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'23 Durango R/T- TnG Supercharged
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Discussion starter · #1 ·
The wife and I are musicians and have an ear for quality sound. Not meaning loud obnoxious bass, but clarity, balance, imaging, etc ... I have a high end custom setup in my GTO using a Helix DSP along with appropriate calibration equipment and knowledge to do the tuning myself. I mention the above points just to give context to the below.

We had the Beats system in our 2016 R/T, and it was pretty good for an OEM. It imaged nicely on the dash from either front seat (not easy to accomplish) and also had decent frequency response with good bass.

We sold that vehicle and bought a 2023 Grand Cherokee Summit Reserve with the 19 speaker McIntosh system. This system was phenomenal, as I would expect McIntosh to be. It did everything really well. Clarity was really, really good with very defined bass without causing muddiness. Imaging was spot on as well.

Now we have the 2023 Durango Premium TnG, and while I didn't expect it to match or surpass the McIntosh, I did expect it to be better than the Beats and come close to the McIntosh ... but it just doesn't. I haven't yet had time to break out the calibration microphone and laptop yet, to take some measurements .. but the overall system response is very lacking. It sounds like the mid bass and mid range are nonexistent. The 3 band EQ doesn't really help, as it's really just meant for contouring the sound to an individual's preference.

The imaging is nonexistant as well. There is no center image at all. You hear the left and right sides separately, coming from the left and right. If this were my GTO, I would immediately suspect I had a phase issue between left and right. The issues seems to be a very poor tune of the system in the vehicle as phase these days can be controlled in the software.

The components of this system have the potential to sound great, and the mounting locations for the 19 speakers is pretty ideal ... so it should sound great with a proper tune (ie: software configuration).

Some may say the speakers may need to "break in" ... I know speakers will change a bit as they break-in, but I also know it won't be so drastic to be the cause of what we're hearing.

I did a quick search on the forum and found similar posts from back in 2021, and it seems an update was released back then which resolved some of the issues, so I'm wondering if anyone else with a 2023 MY has the same impression we do?

When we were driving the vehicle home, the wife turned on the radio and immedialty went "ewww ... that sounds terrible!" and I agreed.

I think I may take some measurements and contact Harmon Kardon directly with my findings to see what they say. If it is a phasing issue, it could be miswired speakers or software ...
 
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#2 ·
I've found the HK in my '23 Durango to sound quite good. It could use more base, but it has good clarity, solid highs, mids, sound stage is descent, etc. Although in my case, the factory exhaust is loud enough to drown out all of that the second you turn start the engine. It still sounds descent on the road, but it can only do so much with the low frequencies of the exhaust. Even with a quiet system, road/wind noise don't exactly help (even though the Durango is surprisingly quiet in that regard).

It's still much better quality than the base system. And its night/day difference from the HK I had my in '22 RAM Limited, which I was not impressed with. It's not up to the levels of say, the ML system in my last Lexus. But I'm quite happy with it.

My source is either Tidal or Google Play Music via Android Auto, both set to "high quality." Tidal, of course, sounds the best. But I don't use it much on the Durango, because once again, after you hit the Start button, it really doesn't matter! XM or FM are useless on any descent quality stereo system.
 
#3 ·
On HK system I swapped out the sub and center channel and put polyfil in the enclosure. It improved the sound but I would have paid the same upgrade price for them to leave out the factory junk in place of 3 RCA cables front rear and sub at the back area, 4 gauge power ground with remote on wire and head unit with 10 band eq.
 
Discussion starter · #4 · (Edited)
cambo said:
On HK system I swapped out the sub and center channel and put polyfil in the enclosure. It improved the sound but I would have paid the same upgrade price for them to leave out the factory junk in place of 3 RCA cables front rear and sub at the back area, 4 gauge power ground with remote on wire and head unit with 10 band eq.
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I actually enjoy the tight integration of modern factory systems, but of course, only when they sound reasonably well. I certainly don't expect it to sound like my GTO does, and really don't have a desire for it to .... but there's definitely something wrong with the wiring or config. The more I think about it the more I believe something is causing a phase issue. It could be reversed wiring from the factory, or a software configuration ...

For reference, this is what the system in my GTO consists of ... I also gutted the interior of this car and applied CLD, MLV and CCF throughout (even the wheel wells). The car is very quiet and sounds great!

Image


I have no desire to try anything like this on the Durango, I just want the Harman Kardon system to sound as good as I know it can. I wish there was a way for us to tweak the tune ourselves like I can do on my Helix DSP ...
 
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Discussion starter · #5 ·
omegafiler said:
I've found the HK in my '23 Durango to sound quite good. It could use more base, but it has good clarity, solid highs, mids, sound stage is descent, etc. Although in my case, the factory exhaust is loud enough to drown out all of that the second you turn start the engine. It still sounds descent on the road, but it can only do so much with the low frequencies of the exhaust. Even with a quiet system, road/wind noise don't exactly help (even though the Durango is surprisingly quiet in that regard).

It's still much better quality than the base system. And its night/day difference from the HK I had my in '22 RAM Limited, which I was not impressed with. It's not up to the levels of say, the ML system in my last Lexus. But I'm quite happy with it.

My source is either Tidal or Google Play Music via Android Auto, both set to "high quality." Tidal, of course, sounds the best. But I don't use it much on the Durango, because once again, after you hit the Start button, it really doesn't matter! XM or FM are useless on any descent quality stereo system.
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It sounds like yours doesn't have the same issues mine does. My uConnect is on build FCA-MY23.T25.48-PROD .... is this the same as yours?

If so, maybe it is a physical wiring issue in my vehicle causing a phase problem ... hmm ...
 
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#6 ·
FWIW, you will find the standard Alpine system better then the HK system. My wife has the HK 19 speaker system in her 21 JGC and it is not satisfying to the ears compared to my Durango's Alpine. The 3 band tone stack is ridiculously lacking for asystem like yours or mine for that matter. Lots of people improved the quality by swapping out the OEM speakers with high quality aftremarket speakers. Other people went further with amps and such. I simply would love Dodge to update Uconnect to include a 7 band graphic eq as that would make the stock system soud much better with the added fine tuning of frequencies.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Vice-White said:
FWIW, you will find the standard Alpine system better then the HK system. My wife has the HK 19 speaker system in her 21 JGC and it is not satisfying to the ears compared to my Durango's Alpine. The 3 band tone stack is ridiculously lacking for asystem like yours or mine for that matter. Lots of people improved the quality by swapping out the OEM speakers with high quality aftremarket speakers. Other people went further with amps and such. I simply would love Dodge to update Uconnect to include a 7 band graphic eq as that would make the stock system soud much better with the added fine tuning of frequencies.
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I hear what you're saying, but the components of the HK system should sound decent. An EQ in the head unit should really only be for personal preference adjustments, not for tuning the system to the vehicle and components used.

Once I'm able to take some measurements I think things will become clear. I'll bet if I pan to one side, and run a sweep .. then pan center and run a sweep, I'll see phase issues happening. Some correlated and uncorrelated pink noise tests should also help to expose what's going on.

Right now the Durango is at the shop getting paint correction, PPF, OEM stripes, ceramic coat and window tint though. I should have it back by Friday at the latest, so hopefully I have some time to break out the laptop and calibration mic to run some tests this weekend.

I may even pull the door panels and check electric polarity just to be sure the wiring isn't to blame. I could see the factory getting this wrong if the connectors are not keyed ... and it would explain why some have the issue while others don't.

Even if the speakers aren't the best, the center image should be there. Bad speakers will create bad sound, but should still appear to come from the center. In our vehicle, you clearly hear the front left and front right separate from each other.
 
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Discussion starter · #8 ·
Hmm, another variable I suppose is the ANC (active noise cancelling). I could see some miscalibration or malfunctioning ANC causing significant sound quality issues.
 
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#9 ·
stoopalini said:
Once I'm able to take some measurements I think things will become clear. I'll bet if I pan to one side, and run a sweep .. then pan center and run a sweep, I'll see phase issues happening
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That would be great to find out if some polarities are wired wrong creating issues but I think somone did some DSP configuration in an office room and not the vehicle most likely in another country.

They really screwed up the 2014 alpine system with something I have never seen truly bizarre how adjusting the bass at different volumes changed the sound output from muddy to clear this is DSP at its worst

 
#11 ·
I agree with Vice-White whole heartedly. At factory default settings, my 2011 Crew with the Alpine system sounded so much better than this Harmon Kardon system. The very first time in my new Durango I figured someone test drove this and messed up all the settings, turned off all the base and moved the fade to the front... Sounded like absolute garbage. ... Then I opened the audio settings and saw that everything was zeroed out on factory settings and wondered, what kind of design skill set does it take to make things sound even worse on a "premium", newer, system. I will absolutely second the desire for something more than a 3 band EQ on the system. Or, at the very least, a separate subwoofer output control! That drove me nuts on my 2011 and figured surely a decade newer premium system would have that at the least, as people's personal choice on subwoofer base can be drastically different.

My biggest gripe with the HK vs Alpine is that on the HK, no matter what I did on the EQ, the majority of "fixing" the sound occurred from adjusting the Fade, which was not something I had to do with the old Alpine.
 
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Discussion starter · #12 ·
StuckOnDurango said:
One thing to note.... you can search the forum.... I believe at least one individual swapped out the sub and it screwed up the ANC.
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Ya, changing any of the speakers on any venicle with ANC will mess up the audio. You typically have to disable ANC to do anything aftermarket to a stereo with factory ANC.
 
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#14 ·
I was disappointed with the HK system in my '22 SRT. It doesn't really have 19 speakers, they count the 2-way speakers as 2, so there's really only 14. I replaced 11 of the factory speakers with kicker components and stuffed the sub with polyfill and it made a Huge difference, 100% worth it.

Nothing "messes up" the ANC, but if you change out the sub (keeping the stock Amp), you will hear the sub humming whenever the ANC is active, which on my SRT is every time MDS kicks on. I did originally swap the sub for a kicker 10" but went back to stock with polyfill because the ANC sucked. In earlier models you can bypass it, but not on 22+ as far as I know without bypassing the stock Amp.
 
#15 ·
powerfreak said:
Nothing "messes up" the ANC, but if you change out the sub (keeping the stock Amp), you will hear the sub humming whenever the ANC is active, which on my SRT is every time MDS kicks on. I did originally swap the sub for a kicker 10" but went back to stock with polyfill because the ANC sucked. In earlier models you can bypass it, but not on 22+ as far as I know without bypassing the stock Amp.
Click to expand...


That's maybe why I didn't notice any weird sound on the 2021 tow n go. Im not ssure what they changed in 2022 to make the sub hum.
 
#16 ·
cambo said:
That's maybe why I didn't notice any weird sound on the 2021 tow n go. Im not ssure what they changed in 2022 to make the sub hum.
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ANC works through the sub, basically creating a low frequency noise to audibly cancel out exhaust drone. When you upgrade the speaker in the sub, it gets louder (and very annoying). I think in the '22's (or maybe just in the SRT's), ANC is activated with MDS, others seem to only come on in tow mode so it's not really something you ever have to hear unless you tow alot. On the pre-22's, the ANC controller is under the drivers seat and there's a few companies that make a bypass harness. On the 22's, it's built into the stock amp electronics.
 
#17 ·
powerfreak said:
ANC works through the sub, basically creating a low frequency noise to audibly cancel out exhaust drone. When you upgrade the speaker in the sub, it gets louder (and very annoying). I think in the '22's (or maybe just in the SRT's), ANC is activated with MDS, others seem to only come on in tow mode so it's not really something you ever have to hear unless you tow alot. On the pre-22's, the ANC controller is under the drivers seat and there's a few companies that make a bypass harness. On the 22's, it's built into the stock amp electronics.
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Oh any info or picture of the ANC controller? I would love to be able to control it (turn it on when I want)
 
#18 ·
S8ER01Z said:
Oh any info or picture of the ANC controller? I would love to be able to control it (turn it on when I want)
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The bypass harnesses that are available just basically turn ANC off. Not sure how possible it is to be able to turn it on/off without rigging up some sort of switch. I'd be perfectly happy without it, don't see any need to have it on at all, ever.
 
#19 · (Edited)
The owners of the HK system in your Durango, how do you feel the volume control is to get the levels you want? For example, my wifes HK system at 25 is equal to my Alpine system @ 18 or so. I feel the Alpine system gets louder quicker and much more linear compared to the HK. My wife feels the HK sounds great and edges her Jeep over the Durango in the tone department. :unsure:
 
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#20 ·
The system in my Durango is definitely disappointing in comparison to the Alpine system that my 2017 Ram 1500 CC had in it. The Ram sounded so much better compared to the system in my Durango.
 
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