5.7L to 6.4L Swap

Cbort · Dec 7, 2022

Here are pics of the water pumps:

5.7

thermostat housing with “no extra fitting”.

Cbort · Dec 7, 2022

Here is the 6.4 water pump with the extra fitting on the thermostat housing.

added the largest fitting I could find locally.

Cbort · Dec 7, 2022

Current update as of 12/7:

-6.4 is in!
—will update the thread with a complete list of compatible/noncompatibke

-8sp transmission and 6.4 married!
—will update on the struggles of this task soon.

-90% of wiring done
—will update with the few issues that I encountered soon.

-90% of lines, hoses etc. complete
—will update with list of issues and compatible parts soon.

Lastly, I still have a few things to do before test starting.

-waiting on Jeep SRT oil dipstick and tube (supposed to be here Friday.)

-waiting on set of gutted Jeep SRT cats and Extended O2 sensors to arrive to finish exhaust.

-Need to swap 5.7 starter for 6.4 starter

-need to finish oil cooler line from water pump

-need to figure out a better solution for air/fuel line on intake manifold.

-need to decide on short runner valve controller, order and install.

-few other things, but that is my list to attack this week with the goal to test start by next weekend.

Enthusiast · Dec 7, 2022

Wow! Looks like you have many options. I vote with going the easiest way with the parts you have and the vehicle fitment that works best. Since you had a complete engine, it is best to stay with that setup as long as you get the vehicle fitment worked out. Since my long block did not have any of that, it was better to go with a new 5.7L timing chain cover and use the accessories from my 5.7L so really there was no fitment issues. The plastic oil pan dip stick hole was in a different location on the new metal SRT oil pan that put it in the way with the headers so I got a different dipstick. You probably will not have that problem. Also, I think the crank timing and cam timing sensors should be OK with your 5.7 computer. The newer 2013 and later 5.7 & 6.4 58 tooth reluctor wheels have a tooth width of .130" (3.302 MM) and sensors should be the same so the computer should be getting the right number of pulses. You may need to change the airflow characteristics in the 5.7L computer in the tune. I have not figured out my tuning issue yet. Also, not sure what SRT features are enabled with the 6.4L computer OS versus the 5.7L. The hardware is the same. Which tune format will you use? I think HP Tuners has the best capability with the ability of uploads for processing a Neural Net training on uploaded files on their website. The uploads are processed often in only 2 minutes. I understand this may be required for some systems that have large changes where the ECU Neural Net parameters are not close enough for the ECU system to make the necessary learning adjustments to the tune auto-magically. The Dodge tune experts can probably explain that better.

Not sure about how to match the vehicle fitment with the reservoir. If you still have the engine out and already have all of the 5.7 stuff, maybe it would be easier to transfer the 5.7L timing cover if in good conditions or get a new one so everything aligns with the vehicle fitment. Also if the cover is off you could check other things; chain, cam, and roller lifters for the lifter/cam failure issue. While you are in there, please change the oil pump to the Melling High Performance oil pump. This will increase the oil pressure and flow similar to a Hellcat. The stock pump oil pressures are dangerously low on many 5.7L & 6.4L vehicles when at hot idle for extended periods of time and can contribute to the roller lifter/cam failure issue. Since you have the timing cover off, that means you had to remove the main pulley/balancer. If so, then you should probably change the balancer to an ATI, planning ahead, you may go with an 18% overdrive and pin the crank so it is ready for the future supercharger one day. I have a set of brand new stock 6.4L pistons and cam taken from the new unfired long block at a decent price if interested once my project is complete. A lot of 5.7L owners like to use the 6.4L cam and intake. The good news on your 6.4L is that it already has a forged crank and a block that can easily handle 1,000HP. You would just need to forge the rods/pistons for safe supercharger boost above 6psi.

Comment addendum since you posted an update just before I posted:
Looks like you have already blown past most of the issues and installed. Good to know you can go either way on the timing cover and get it done. Great pictures. Big $ savings doing it yourself with a used engine. Your wife should be happy with the extra 100HP when done.

Next Steps?

Brad zellner · Dec 7, 2022

Following. A 392 swap may be a better option than a supercharger.

Enthusiast · Dec 8, 2022

Brad zellner said:
Following. A 392 swap may be a better option than a supercharger.

Not a 6.4 vs 5.7 SC upgrade debate.
Stock vs stock there is no debate until we compare apples and oranges

6.4 SWAP SCENARIOS:

Out of warranty
Under warranty, voided by mods
Damaged 5.7 replacement
Skilled owner upgrade with labor and used engine savings

6.4 POWER ADDER OPTIONS:
#1) NA stock 6.4 no power adders (440WHP, 80-100HP more than stock 5.7)
#2) NA stock 6.4 with Cam and bolt on parts (500+WHP)
#3) SC on stock 6.4 - low boost only option. (wasted SC potential, high cost, high risk, lower value).
#4) SC on forged built 6.4 with medium to high boost (no wasted SC potential, high cost, less risk, higher value, hellcat bragging rights)

After #1, #2 is a good budget NA upgrade with skills or a skillful friend, but should not be done if a SC is desired later. If you have bigger budget HP plans, you should wait until you can jump from #1 to #4. In my opinion, #3 is a not a good option. Respect for the old school normally aspirated big cubic inch guys who refuse to call a 392 a 6.4L (merica!)

The #4 Option is graphically represented in my previous post

. The graphic is for illustration purposes and no animals were harmed in producing the video. The 4 wheel burnout hides the cable hidden by the smoke. Great touch.

Cbort · Dec 12, 2022

Enthusiast said:
Wow! Looks like you have many options. I vote with going the easiest way with the parts you have and the vehicle fitment that works best. Since you had a complete engine, it is best to stay with that setup as long as you get the vehicle fitment worked out. Since my long block did not have any of that, it was better to go with a new 5.7L timing chain cover and use the accessories from my 5.7L so really there was no fitment issues. The plastic oil pan dip stick hole was in a different location on the new metal SRT oil pan that put it in the way with the headers so I got a different dipstick. You probably will not have that problem. Also, I think the crank timing and cam timing sensors should be OK with your 5.7 computer. The newer 2013 and later 5.7 & 6.4 58 tooth reluctor wheels have a tooth width of .130" (3.302 MM) and sensors should be the same so the computer should be getting the right number of pulses. You may need to change the airflow characteristics in the 5.7L computer in the tune. I have not figured out my tuning issue yet. Also, not sure what SRT features are enabled with the 6.4L computer OS versus the 5.7L. The hardware is the same. Which tune format will you use? I think HP Tuners has the best capability with the ability of uploads for processing a Neural Net training on uploaded files on their website. The uploads are processed often in only 2 minutes. I understand this may be required for some systems that have large changes where the ECU Neural Net parameters are not close enough for the ECU system to make the necessary learning adjustments to the tune auto-magically. The Dodge tune experts can probably explain that better.

Not sure about how to match the vehicle fitment with the reservoir. If you still have the engine out and already have all of the 5.7 stuff, maybe it would be easier to transfer the 5.7L timing cover if in good conditions or get a new one so everything aligns with the vehicle fitment. Also if the cover is off you could check other things; chain, cam, and roller lifters for the lifter/cam failure issue. While you are in there, please change the oil pump to the Melling High Performance oil pump. This will increase the oil pressure and flow similar to a Hellcat. The stock pump oil pressures are dangerously low on many 5.7L & 6.4L vehicles when at hot idle for extended periods of time and can contribute to the roller lifter/cam failure issue. Since you have the timing cover off, that means you had to remove the main pulley/balancer. If so, then you should probably change the balancer to an ATI, planning ahead, you may go with an 18% overdrive and pin the crank so it is ready for the future supercharger one day. I have a set of brand new stock 6.4L pistons and cam taken from the new unfired long block at a decent price if interested once my project is complete. A lot of 5.7L owners like to use the 6.4L cam and intake. The good news on your 6.4L is that it already has a forged crank and a block that can easily handle 1,000HP. You would just need to forge the rods/pistons for safe supercharger boost above 6psi.

Comment addendum since you posted an update just before I posted:
Looks like you have already blown past most of the issues and installed. Good to know you can go either way on the timing cover and get it done. Great pictures. Big $ savings doing it yourself with a used engine. Your wife should be happy with the extra 100HP when done.

Next Steps?
View attachment 124059
View attachment 124058

Went with 6.4 parts, simply plumbed the oil cooler line to the thermostat housing fitting. Will purchase the front facing fitting later if needed.

Enthusiast · Dec 12, 2022

Cool! When you get to the tuning, please keep us updated. You may get your project done before me

. If my tuning issue is resolved, I will update briefly on your post and provide more details on my post. Thanks!

Cbort · Dec 12, 2022

Another quick update. Found a set of gutted Trackhawk cats. Almost afraid to see wife’s reaction when firing this baby up for the first time. Between these and the Magnaflow 3” catback exhaust, I’m a bit worried that she might be complaining that it’s too loud.

Enthusiast · Dec 12, 2022

Great! The cats look similar to the Kooks setup. I forgot if you have headers. I also have the MagnaFlow 3" mufflers. I think they are the best because of the flow and performance. There is a solution to reducing a very loud exhaust or loud drone like sound. Not sure if it is worth it on your setup. MagnaFlow has a 3" x-Pipe Muffler combo that can replace the x-pipe.

DynoMax makes a 3" x-Pipe Muffler combo (DynoMax Ultra Flo™ X, model 17554) but I do not recommend. From my experience, stay away from this one. It has "Continuous Roving Fiberglass to absorb unwanted interior resonance". In practice, not. . . the drone was much louder than the MagnaFlow version. Otherwise, it works great until the internals rattle, fall apart, then blows the fiberglass out the rear of the vehicle. Then the welded seems tore apart. This happened on two of them within 3 weeks. Luckily Amazon gave my money back on both as defective under warranty.

The MagnaFlow 12599 version of this design looks superior with 100% stainless steel and lap-joint welded for solid construction and rugged reliability even in the most extreme conditions. They feature a free-flowing, straight-through perforated stainless steel core; stainless mesh wrap and acoustical fiber fill to deliver that smooth, deep tone. MagnaFlow Mufflers are packed tight with this acoustical material to ensure long life and no sound degradation over time. I can confirm this is true after a couple years use.

• Delivers a Smooth, Deep Tone
• 100% Stainless Steel
• Mufflers are Bi-Directional
• Lifetime Warranty

MAGNAFLOW 12599 REPLACEMENT:

MagnaFlow Website MAGNAFLOW 12599
Amazon MAGNAFLOW 12599

This helps make the vehicle sound nice at full throttle but very quiet for family cruising. If you want to get "very loud" on demand, remoted cutouts will do the trick.

Cbort · Dec 14, 2022

Ok, back to the starter….
So, I removed the 5.7 starter and attempted to install the 6.4 starter and ran into an issue. The 6.4 starter mounting bolts (3 of them compared to only 2 on the 5.7 starter) do not line up. Even if I were to simply use just the two outermost mounting holes, they are roughly 1/2” off. Also there is a bell-housing bolt that does not allow the starter to seat properly.

The 5.7 only has 10 teeth I believe, whereas the 6.4 has roughly 12+ teeth. Any ideas? I am going to do some more research and see if I can find an SRT Durango or Jeep starter with the teeth that matches the 6.4 starter.

I really do not want to have to remove the flex plate if I can help it, but wish I would have known this ahead of time.

Cbort · Dec 14, 2022

Enthusiast said:
Great! The cats look similar to the Kooks setup. I forgot if you have headers. I also have the MagnaFlow 3" mufflers. I think they are the best because of the flow and performance. There is a solution to reducing a very loud exhaust or loud drone like sound. Not sure if it is worth it on your setup. MagnaFlow has a 3" x-Pipe Muffler combo that can replace the x-pipe.

DynoMax makes a 3" x-Pipe Muffler combo (DynoMax Ultra Flo™ X, model 17554) but I do not recommend. From my experience, stay away from this one. It has "Continuous Roving Fiberglass to absorb unwanted interior resonance". In practice, not. . . the drone was much louder than the MagnaFlow version. Otherwise, it works great until the internals rattle, fall apart, then blows the fiberglass out the rear of the vehicle. Then the welded seems tears apart. This happened on two of them within 3 weeks. Luckily Amazon gave my money back on both as defective under warranty.

The MagnaFlow 12599 version of this design looks superior with 100% stainless steel and lap-joint welded for solid construction and rugged reliability even in the most extreme conditions. They feature a free-flowing, straight-through perforated stainless steel core; stainless mesh wrap and acoustical fiber fill to deliver that smooth, deep tone. MagnaFlow Mufflers are packed tight with this acoustical material to ensure long life and no sound degradation over time. I can confirm this is true after a couple years use.

• Delivers a Smooth, Deep Tone
• 100% Stainless Steel
• Mufflers are Bi-Directional
• Lifetime Warranty

MAGNAFLOW 12599 REPLACEMENT:
View attachment 124182

View attachment 124184
View attachment 124185
MagnaFlow Website MAGNAFLOW 12599
Amazon MAGNAFLOW 12599

This helps make the vehicle sound nice at full throttle but very quiet for family cruising. If you want to get "very loud" on demand, remoted cutouts will do the trick.

That may be an option I will look into if it is too loud for her. Hopefully, it will be ok! Lol

Cbort · Dec 14, 2022

Cbort said:
Ok, back to the starter….
So, I removed the 5.7 starter and attempted to install the 6.4 starter and ran into an issue. The 6.4 starter mounting bolts (3 of them compared to only 2 on the 5.7 starter) do not line up. Even if I were to simply use just the two outermost mounting holes, they are roughly 1/2” off. Also there is a bell-housing bolt that does not allow the starter to seat properly.

The 5.7 only has 10 teeth I believe, whereas the 6.4 has roughly 12+ teeth. Any ideas? I am going to do some more research and see if I can find an SRT Durango or Jeep starter with the teeth that matches the 6.4 starter.

I really do not want to have to remove the flex plate if I can help it, but wish I would have known this ahead of time.

Think I may have answered my own starter question after doing some research.

Facts:

—Flex Plate looks to be same/interchangeable
—ATI supports this with their product that states it fits both engines and transmissions
—5.7 starter 10 teeth (smaller sprocket)
—6.4 starter 13 teeth (larger sprocket)
—same size sprocket, spacing would be reduced on the 13 teeth. So this supports the fitment as well.

Cbort · Dec 14, 2022

Just got off the phone with HHP, and they confirmed that both of my motors used the same Flex Plate and are both compatible with the 10 and 13 teeth starters.

The starters difference is based on which transmission you are using. The 2013 originally had the NAG1 which uses the starter with 13 teeth, whereas the 8sp uses the starter with 10 teeth.

Problem solved!

Last few things to do are:

—install 5.7 starter
—install driver side cat pipe
—install 02 sensors
—top off fluids

—double/triple check connections leaks etc.
—FIRE HER UP!!

Enthusiast · Dec 14, 2022

Cbort said:
Just got off the phone with HHP, and they confirmed that both of my motors used the same Flex Plate and are both compatible with the 10 and 13 teeth starters.

The starters difference is based on which transmission you are using. The 2013 originally had the NAG1 which uses the starter with 13 teeth, whereas the 8sp uses the starter with 10 teeth.

Problem solved!

Last few things to do are:

—install 5.7 starter
—install driver side cat pipe
—install 02 sensors
—top off fluids

—double/triple check connections leaks etc.
—FIRE HER UP!!

Getting close! What oil will you be using? Make sure to bleed fuel pressure and pull fuel pump fuse to make sure you get oil circulating before start. Probably not as important as in a new engine first start but can't hurt. How many miles are on the 6.4L?

Cbort · Dec 15, 2022

Enthusiast said:
Getting close! What oil will you be using? Make sure to bleed fuel pressure and pull fuel pump fuse to make sure you get oil circulating before start. Probably not as important as in a new engine first start but can't hurt. How many miles are on the 6.4L?

Went with Mobile 1 0W-40 which is what was suggested. Been reading a bit about HEMI tick and some claim to have eliminated it by running 5W-30 full synthetic? But I will run this for first 3,000 miles and decide if I want to switch or not. What are you going with?

Cbort · Dec 15, 2022

Quick update!

-starter installed
-fluids topped off
-cats installed (still need to wire up 1 O2 sensor))

And first test fire (PSA: exhaust not installed)

She’s running!

Curtis Bortell on Instagram: "She’s alive!"

Enthusiast · Dec 15, 2022

YES ! ! ! Keep us posted on performance, exhaust note acceptance, and drivability.

Note to self: Argh . . . just say no, or ignore it. I can't help myself

. Hemi Tick . . .

Yes, there is a lot of information on the hemi tick (hydraulic roller lifter/cam failure). The percentage is less than 5% but there are even some low mile vehicles that have the problem. Many confuse the sound for the snapped exhaust header bolt issue more common on the RAMs. If you have a 2017 or greater vehicle, it has the 2017 or greater upgraded hydraulic roller lifters with the larger needle bearings. So if you are doing a rebuild or MDS delete, you would use these. There was also some speculation on a bad batch with softer cam hardness but technically that would not matter if the roller bearing fails and eats any cam you put in. If you do the MDS solenoid delete with non-MDS hydraulic roller lifters that also helps. On my supercharged 5.7, when using a highway driving test (apples for apples), I have tested long trips using the same routes and averaged 20.5mpg (even when towing a small trailer) with or without MDS enabled. So, no significant difference in my case. I have not looked at the blown 5.7 cylinder comparison between always active and "sometimes" inactive cylinders. Emphasis on the "sometimes", dependent on whether you turn it off, use sport mode, or have a heavy foot that keeps it disabled most of the time.
2017 (also mid 2016) or later Hemi hydraulic roller lifter/cam vs 2016 or earlier:

The impact of oil change frequency cannot be overemphasized. Yes, there are some rare engine cases where it is less of an issue. The flow and pressure are also important factors. The stock oil pumps combined with older oils, with high temperatures, and Long Periods of Low RPM Idle Times can cause Dangerously Low Oil pressures and Flows, more rapidly aged oil, poor lubrication, and acceleration of the the Hemi Tick issue. This seems more common with Fleet vehicles with long idle times. No wonder there is so much confusion. Look at all of the variables. Great case for Multivariate data analysis and lots of room for speculation. Anyway, I think the best approach is to eliminate as many of the variables as possible. Yes anomalies will occur but you will increase the odds in your favor. Here are my recommendations:
HEMI TICK PREVENTION:

Frequent Oil Changes - do not need further explanation
Quality Motor Oil for your Engine - IMO: 0W-40W FACTORY VISCOSITY ONLY! 1) Amsoil; 2) Pennzoil; 3) Royal Purple 4) MOPAR oil. Amsoil has the highest film strength and lubricity. Regarding oil viscosity: Having a higher pressure and volume oil pump will raise your oil pressure without negatively affecting flow. Going with a higher viscosity oil will increase oil pressure because of resistance to flow, which you do not want. Interestingly, If you are one of the believers that thicker is always better you will find the one exception case not even applicable to your model that you can use in your decision process, such as a Chrysler service bulletin, for 2005-2006 6.1L model that operates above 230° with an annoying fluttering oil cooler jet noise problem only at idle, that does not affect engine durability. They do not tell you that higher viscosity oil may negatively affect lubrication if there is insufficient flow into areas with low pressure where higher viscosity oil cannot reach. There are plenty of other discussion threads on many forums on the viscosity debate. Look at your oil temperature, if it is very high, it may not be in a range where thicker oil may even help and you may have other issues. Please choose viscosity on factory OEM data first, in this case, the wrong oil could have huge production impact so they probably got this one correct. They probably put some thought into this. There are plenty starter threads and forums to continue the viscosity debate. Choose one based on data, or at least entertainment value .
Quality Oil Filter - Hub oil filter (lifetime, need 2; 1 active, 1 spare, need small ultrasonic cleaner for maintenance) - excellent bypass, filtration, high flow, lifetime
MDS delete kit: MDS solenoid delete with solenoid plugs, unlocked PCM with MDS software disabled, non-MDS hydraulic roller lifters (standard 2017 or later MOPAR lifter design)
Stock Oil Pump Replacement Upgrade - Melling performance or Hellcat oil pump (higher flows/pressure at idle and higher RPMs)
Optional performance cam - reduces possible batch of soft OEM cam hardness (unlikely, possibly speculation unless someone actually tested the hardness and has real numbers to compare)

Regarding Motor Oil Analysis: Motor oil is probably the most underrated product with the highest impact on engine life. I do prefer the clear oils to actually see contamination over time like Amsoil and Pennzoil (a Shell Oil brand). Chrysler also has agreements with Pennzoil. Also, Amsoil has the highest anti-acid component.

. Do your own data based research. However, for entertainment purposes, please watch this:

Project Farm - Amsoil or Pennzoil?

Duh-rango · Dec 15, 2022

Funny thing with the roller lifters there are folks on the challenger forum (IIRC it was like 3 +2016) with manual trans challengers (non-MDS) that have still experienced chewed lobes due to roller failure. Nowhere near as many failures as the ram guys saw but the new lifter design is not necessarily a cure...but an improvement.

Enthusiast · Dec 15, 2022

Duh-rango said:
Funny thing with the roller lifters there are folks on the challenger forum (IIRC it was like 3 +2016) with manual trans challengers (non-MDS) that have still experienced chewed lobes due to roller failure. Nowhere near as many failures as the ram guys saw but the new lifter design is not necessarily a cure...but an improvement.

Exactly. Non-MDS systems are not a complete solution. Many variables here. Getting more quality oil flow where it needs to be, even at hot idle also can't hurt.

All of the variables recommended to reduce failure may all be fighting against an underlying design issue. Gravity, oil drain and the near horizontal angle of the lifters. Like Project Farm, the following video from the Uncle Tony's Garage (UTC) channel, is for educational or entertainment purposes. It is controversial, but I like the part where he says, "one more time for you slow guys"

. Notice how the viscosity of a near horizontal lifter may affect how the oil falls by gravity towards the roller needle bearings. If the roller needle bearing lubrication is mainly dependent on crank case splash where this may be much lower at idle, along with the design, there may be something here on the bearings going dry under certain conditions. I do not think higher viscosity oil will help with this. Stay with the factory viscosity oil (0W-40W), with good oil film strength and lubricity. Amsoil has the highest film strength and lubricity, according to Project Farm testing (at 4:50) in the previous post video. Also, keeping your oil pressure and flow higher, especially when hot, at low RPMs, and at idle, with a performance pump (Melling or MOPAR Hellcat) can't hurt.
Uncle Tony's Garage - Hemi Fatal Flaw

A Manufacturer Solution is also a numbers game:
Recalls are only required for safety. If there is let's say, less than 1% failure under warranty and brand reputation does not suffer with a popular product, it is often cheaper to handle the warranty issues without the corporate painful or evil three "R"s. Re-tool, Re-design, or Re-call and maybe Re-pent

. They know what numbers it would take to do a non-safety recall where there is a solution. Silent improvements through service bulletins and replacement parts may be the best way for them to go. It is a balance of R&D, production volume, and re-tooling before the next gen. The end users must evaluate the risks, look for service bulletins or part improvements, and employ strategies that may reduce the risk factor variables like watching the motor oil drip test on Project Farm

.

Sorry I kind of went off on this. The original question was simply, what kind of oil do you use and then the Hemi Tick was mentioned and it triggered me.

.

5.7L to 6.4L Swap

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