All-out audio build (Lanson's '15 RT)

Lanson · Jul 11, 2016

OK, update time, I'm probably going to redo the trunk design (downfire or rebuild top side out of wood, undecided.) The reason is I can't kill the insane resonance of the cover panel when it is over the subs, and so for now the panel is flipped open anytime I'm playing the system at a decent volume.
Time for some deadening work.

Underside of the spare tire area

I went with near complete coverage under there

I ended up breaking one of the handles while trying to remove the tailgate panel. They are very brittle, but they must be removed to clear the panel

But the panel came loose after some convincing

Discovered that my spoiler was not actually fully bolted down. This is my left (driver's) side

And the passenger side with the nut not installed. I found the nut in the metal of the tailgate, and I installed that.

I added deadener in the critical flat areas, and especially in places inside the panel that could be prone to resonate

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d931b3127cceecc00f6af79d00000030O00AcOWjRo1btG QPbz4C/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00204754449820160711002601423.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/[img]

Plastic panels were treated the same
[img]https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d931b3127cceecc1d5dfd70900000030O00AcOWjRo1btG QPbz4C/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00204754449820160711002558834.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d931b3127cceecc0af18f7bf00000030O00AcOWjRo1btG QPbz4C/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00204754449820160711002554624.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/[img]
[img]https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d931b3127cceecc08104768400000030O10AcOWjRo1btG QPbz4C/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00204754449820160711002552136.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

While I was at it, I swapped my reverse lights for some strong Samsung white LED's, and the tailgate lights were swapped for some decent leftover LED's from my stash

The handle was epoxied to repair, and reinstalled.

I tested outside resonance with Tipper songs, which get pretty aggressive on the bass side. Here's a youtube video of the metal resonance (thankfully not audible), after I got rid of the other rattles.

I had to stuff Ensolite foam in between the spoiler and the rear hatch area to eliminate the sound. That is, after I bolted the spoiler back down.

So with the system at full tilt, I ran around the car listening for anything rattling and found (after the spoiler was handled) nothing could be heard outside other than a smidgen of what was inside, certainly no buzzing or rattling. I'm extremely pleased with the lack of outside resonance, which is just tacky I think. Inside, the car is quite loud full-range, and the front stage fully keeps up with the sub stage, no question. It is fairly clean but I am certain the factory head unit is holding the system back a bit. In the future, if someone invents an aftermarket solution to the OEM design that loses nothing, I might invest in it.

Back to the trunk, I've been talking with MoparMike in his thread and pretty much determined he was on the right path and I was on the wrong one, regarding downfiring subs vs. upfiring, and regarding keeping the trunk cover panel and ditching it. The cover panel simply resonates far too much, and I can't stop it other than to remove it. For now, the panel is flipped open to listen to music, but that's not stealth in the slightest. I will be remaking the whole trunk design, likely to a downfiring setup, to get my intended results of a resonance-free system. It isn't fun starting from scratch again but it must be done, I think.

I had to reverse the phase on the sub to get rid of a nasty cancellation node occurring at the crossover point. That was an interesting problem, since I kept electrical phase consistent as I built this system, but somewhere along the way, probably in the doors, something acoustically fell out of phase at the listening point. I have graphs and graphs of this happening. Here, I'll show you my pics I took as I was tuning.

So this is after a re-calibration to 70hz cross point on the sub/woofers, 3k for the tweeters, and the center now at 260hz. No other EQ work besides adding some extra volume to the mid-woofers via the gains, and you can see that in the increased output of the midrange up to the cross point of the tweeters

A major boost around the sub/mid cross point as you can see

More in a minute, I reached a pic limit

Lanson · Jul 11, 2016

Darn thing isn't going away with more EQ, but I was able to minimize it by raising the main volume up and cutting critical areas down

I wasn't happy with this so I decided to re-tune, this time with the sub inversed.

This is where I stopped, I'm pretty happy with this sound. I think my limit is now just the subwoofer box itself (too small to be ideal), but it is an acceptable limit to have.

MoparMike · Jul 11, 2016

Little bit of roof flex but its quiet. Very nice!! And I like your idea of placing the sound deadening under the spare tire, gonna steal that for mine in an effort to avoid cutting the carpeting out.

I'm looking at the peak in your sub response and considering your comment about being limited by the box. What was your final measurement of volume in that enclosure? What did the measurements look like before you raised the crossover frequency?

Lanson · Jul 11, 2016

MoparMike said:
Little bit of roof flex but its quiet. Very nice!! And I like your idea of placing the sound deadening under the spare tire, gonna steal that for mine in an effort to avoid cutting the carpeting out.

I'm looking at the peak in your sub response and considering your comment about being limited by the box. What was your final measurement of volume in that enclosure? What did the measurements look like before you raised the crossover frequency?

You can probably keep the carpeting in, yep. The underneath is as good as the top, when it comes to quelling resonance. The panel is a LOT easier to deal with under the car, compared with the rough terrain inside under that carpet.

I am not sure of the final measurement of the box. I have it somewhere but I'd estimate it to be 1.0 cubes after displacement. The peak in the response is likely cabin gain more than anything else. I am used to lower-playing setups however, so I've got a lot of boost down low where the response falls off.

I don't think I took pics of the 65hz cross point work. I looked through my stored shutterfly files and I don't see any, but later tonight I'll check my laptop for any saved REW files. I was operating very late at night when I was installing the ID's and initially setting that cross point, and I think I was doing it just by ear. I bet, now that I think about it, I'd probably like it now that I've swapped the phase. It sure can be rough on the front doors though, as they can't maintain that lower frequency point without serious boost, which creates interference (contact) issues with the door panel at high output.

Nothing like a little roof flex to remind you what a decent pair of 10's can do.

Juice75 · Jul 11, 2016

This post is gold! I've read every page, and Mike's as well. Just have a couple of questions if you don't mind. I like to listen reasonably loud, but nothing that will rattle the cars next to me.

1. Why did you put ensolite around the 6x9 as a gasket?
2. Can the MS-8 run the factory speakers (minus the sub), or should I amp all of them, just the 6x9s, etc....
3. How's it sound in the 2nd row seats? I ask because my kids are with me most of the time, and they love music, too.
4. Can you give a little more info on what you did with the rear/d-pillar setup?

Thanks in advance.

Lanson · Jul 11, 2016

Juice75 said:
This post is gold! I've read every page, and Mike's as well. Just have a couple of questions if you don't mind. I like to listen reasonably loud, but nothing that will rattle the cars next to me.

1. Why did you put ensolite around the 6x9 as a gasket?
2. Can the MS-8 run the factory speakers (minus the sub), or should I amp all of them, just the 6x9s, etc....
3. How's it sound in the 2nd row seats? I ask because my kids are with me most of the time, and they love music, too.
4. Can you give a little more info on what you did with the rear/d-pillar setup?

Thanks in advance.

1. I was trying to create a basic gasket to prevent mid-high frequency cancellation inside the door panel. It won't help bass frequencies as they'll pass right through, but it is sorta like cupping your hands and it helps reduce midrange issues. There are more professional tools called "fast rings" that do this better. edit found them for 6x9, not sure if they'd work in our application but you can see here http://www.mobilesolutions-usa.com/...usa.com/store/p876/F.A.S.T._Rings__3-Piece_Foam_6"x9"_Speaker_Enhancer_Kit.html My way has some negatives like if the ensolite folds over on itself toward the speaker, it will hit the speaker and you can hear that at high excursion. That has happened before.

2. You could run factory speakers with the MS-8, but it has 20W of power, from a chip-amp, and I've noticed in other builds that it distorts early. In my opinion, even a very basic 50-75W per channel amp would be better, at least on your main speakers that need some juice to move. I also like having gain control with amps vs. the MS-8 just doing what it does, and you can't modify it.

3. Haven't heard it, but kids seem to jam to what's playing. The MS-8 can be tuned for multiple seats, effectively creating compromises in the output to please others. I am selfish (not really, just kidding) but I've only tuned for the driver's front at this time.

4. With the rear speakers and d-pillar, I ran a 4 channel amp off two channels of the MS-8. I made my own splitters out of cable and switchcraft RCA's, but I imagine you could just buy some or buy an amp with a summing ability built-in. Anyway, two channels out of the MS-8, pipe to the amp and become 4 channels through the splitters. Front channels of the amp go to the doors, rear channels go to the D-pillars, and play at a very low gain. They just provide a little bit of ambience. When I tune/calibrate the MS-8, it treats the two speakers as one source and it works great.

Juice75 · Jul 12, 2016

One more question about the rear setup. Are you crossing the rear and d-pillar speakers both at 110hz, or did you set the MS-8 to 110hz, and use the amp to cross the d-pillars higher? Just not sure how low those small speakers will play. Also, what software are you using? I like how you have a reference/target plot and the distortion measurement. I'm fairly new to these aspects of car audio, so trying to learn. Always been a new speakers and amp guy, with some deadening thrown in for good measure. It's always been ok, but ready to take it to the next level. You guys have inspired me.

Lanson · Jul 12, 2016

Juice75 said:
One more question about the rear setup. Are you crossing the rear and d-pillar speakers both at 110hz, or did you set the MS-8 to 110hz, and use the amp to cross the d-pillars higher? Just not sure how low those small speakers will play. Also, what software are you using? I like how you have a reference/target plot and the distortion measurement. I'm fairly new to these aspects of car audio, so trying to learn. Always been a new speakers and amp guy, with some deadening thrown in for good measure. It's always been ok, but ready to take it to the next level. You guys have inspired me.

The crossover is a bit higher (just on the amp I have, simple crossover), I think its 200hz on the D-pillars rears or so. Those guys don't play low but also, they are playing extremely quiet compared with the rest of the system.

I use REW for software, you'll love it if you like free stuff! You just need a good mic with a calibration file, to get the most out of it.

dsga1 · Jul 20, 2016

Hey Lanson!! your continued updates are incredibly detailed. thanks again for the cycles to post all this. such great information for everyone.

a couple questions have come to mind:

do the rear D-pillar speakers only push parksense details? would it be OK to leave D-pillar connected to OEM Amplifier -- these would be ONLY speakers connected to OEM AMP?
as alternative, would it be OK to consider REAR doors at midrange and D-Pillar as tweeter and push signal to both via active crossover (external to AMP). In this scenario would include D-pillar for DSP input (along with FRONT DOOR and FRONT TWEETER). I've been working on strategy for AMP(s) and how to push signal to nine different speaker channels (and SUB ). When using DSP (I bought Alpine -H800), is it preferred to have all target speakers driven by discreet signals from DSP to AMP (as opposed to leveraging external active crossover to reduce the # of AMP channels -- example HERE)?
you posted lots of great pics of soundproofing with Dynamat (or whatever u using). why the small "patchwork" vs larger "full coverage" application? Is this a case of cost or specific fit/finish?

Lanson · Jul 21, 2016

dsga1 said:
Hey Lanson!! your continued updates are incredibly detailed. thanks again for the cycles to post all this. such great information for everyone.

a couple questions have come to mind:

do the rear D-pillar speakers only push parksense details? would it be OK to leave D-pillar connected to OEM Amplifier -- these would be ONLY speakers connected to OEM AMP?

as alternative, would it be OK to consider REAR doors at midrange and D-Pillar as tweeter and push signal to both via active crossover (external to AMP). In this scenario would include D-pillar for DSP input (along with FRONT DOOR and FRONT TWEETER). I've been working on strategy for AMP(s) and how to push signal to nine different speaker channels (and SUB ). When using DSP (I bought Alpine -H800), is it preferred to have all target speakers driven by discreet signals from DSP to AMP (as opposed to leveraging external active crossover to reduce the # of AMP channels -- example HERE)?

you posted lots of great pics of soundproofing with Dynamat (or whatever u using). why the small "patchwork" vs larger "full coverage" application? Is this a case of cost or specific fit/finish?

1. Yes the D-pillar outputs in the factory amp are what outputs parksense. Since I've now built my system the way I have, I realize that the parksense is far too quiet at times. I'd rather have it blare than be too quiet, so I'm probably going to re-wire some inputs to the MS-8 so it can at least pick up on the sound and output it. It might come through the front speakers or even all speakers, but I'd be OK with that.

2. I'm not sure what you're talking about here, I think I'm confused by what you're trying to accomplish. Remember, for surround systems anyway, rear speakers should not be high-end, crystal-clear speakers. You are shooting for ambient sound, something diffuse and basic. You don't want a speaker to distract your attention backward. So for that reason, you want all the speakers in the rear to play basically the same sound, as one simple "speaker" per each output. Remember if you run an active crossover, you need an amp afterwords so you might as well split the signal like I did if you want the same effect. Y-splitters will do a fine, simple job here. Or just leave off the D-pillar outputs and let the parksense come through completely stock (just fade the stock head unit full forward.) Now that I've run it for a while, I'm not sure the D-pillars really DO anything for my system in any beneficial way. I have yet to get back there and listen for any length of time though.

3. check out www.sounddeadenershowdown.com for advice on how to use deadening materials. In it, you'll see there's scientific evidence that full coverage is largely non-essential. If a piece of metal is shaped in anyway but flat, then it is FAR stronger and will not resonate nearly as easily. There's a case of severely diminishing effect with laying deadening down on every surface. About 25% coverage (on all flat surfaces basically) should in theory and in practice reduce resonance almost as much as full coverage. The only place I broke this rule was underneath the car, where I need absolutely as much resonance reduction as I can get, if I intend to downfire. Side note, I will be breaking into the doors and applying much more deadening, foam, and maybe some MLV, maybe some foil barrier, etc because right now, those doors make a racket at full power, on certain frequencies. I will be doubling/tripling my efforts at the doors.

MoparMike · Jul 21, 2016

I haven't looked at what you have done in detail on the doors but here is what I am planning on for deadening:

Apply 80 mil butyl deadener onto the metal inner-door skin, ~ 80 % coverage
Same for the plastic cover on the inner door
Same on the backside of the door card, but smaller pieces and only 25% coverage
Focus on things like the back side of the handle, connecting rods for the latches, and exposed wiring that may rattle around

Do you see anything past these that have been an issue in yours?

Lanson · Jul 21, 2016

MoparMike said:
I haven't looked at what you have done in detail on the doors but here is what I am planning on for deadening:

Apply 80 mil butyl deadener onto the metal inner-door skin, ~ 80 % coverage

Same for the plastic cover on the inner door

Same on the backside of the door card, but smaller pieces and only 25% coverage

Focus on things like the back side of the handle, connecting rods for the latches, and exposed wiring that may rattle around

Do you see anything past these that have been an issue in yours?

I don't think you'll need or even be able to apply 80% coverage. In testing, I can't get the outside of the car doors to make a peep with what I've installed (remember the flexing roof vid). The interior of the door is definitely not a problem at least for how I've got mine set up.

The plastic cover part is actually fiber-reinforced, is VERY strong by what I can tell, and should definitely not be a problem. You can test by installing everything but leave the door panel off. Close up the car, hop in and listen for anything. I heard nothing after I used some caulking around some of the trap door openings (you'll see), and some well-placed deadener.

However, the door panels is going crazy at those levels. You'll find as you tear into the panel, that it is too flexible, like two different pieces of plastic put together and they vibrate against each other at the bottom by the map/water bottle pocket. That's my next area of concern for sure.

Juice75 · Jul 26, 2016

Hey Lanson - since the MS-8 sums the signal, if you adjust the factory EQ, which changes the MS-8 input signal, does it change the output? Or will the MS-8 auto-correct it?

Lanson · Jul 26, 2016

Juice75 said:
Hey Lanson - since the MS-8 sums the signal, if you adjust the factory EQ, which changes the MS-8 input signal, does it change the output? Or will the MS-8 auto-correct it?

you can use the factory head unit's EQ to do adjustments, and per the testing I've done (thread in this forum somewhere), each EQ bump up and down is predictable. The "curves" of the EQ bumps are centered fairly well too.

But I don't use them (though I could), I use the MS-8's EQ and tone settings instead.

the Ms-8 can't EQ correct on the fly. It only does it initially when you first set it up.

Lanson · Jul 29, 2016

Hey head's up, a fellow DIYMA forum member has an MS-8 for sale.

This would be a rare opportunity if someone wants to build a system similar to mine in design

JBL MS-8 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

dsga1 · Aug 2, 2016

@lance. thanks for the ongoing posts and answers. very insightful.

was curious how you selected the "Image Dynamics X69" for front door? I see description as "mid-bass" driver.

I'm assuming signal sent to speaker has High-pass filter applied? what is approx cut-off -- 1khz -- to avoid excessive bass and resonance in door? I see this as #1 complaint of OEM Alpine system that I'm looking to resolve.
Does the driver just ignore the higher frequencies after HPF (as it obviously can't reproduce 20khz, for example).

Is there anything wrong with using a two-way 6x9 (with onboard tweeter) and HPF? will the high frequencies from 6x9 conflict with the output of dash tweeters and create some type of cancellation or something? I thought this was only possible on mid- and lower frequencies.

pls forgive my obvious ignorance... -GA

Lanson · Aug 3, 2016

dsga1 said:
@lance. thanks for the ongoing posts and answers. very insightful.

was curious how you selected the "Image Dynamics X69" for front door? I see description as "mid-bass" driver.

I'm assuming signal sent to speaker has High-pass filter applied? what is approx cut-off -- 1khz -- to avoid excessive bass and resonance in door? I see this as #1 complaint of OEM Alpine system that I'm looking to resolve.
Does the driver just ignore the higher frequencies after HPF (as it obviously can't reproduce 20khz, for example).

Is there anything wrong with using a two-way 6x9 (with onboard tweeter) and HPF? will the high frequencies from 6x9 conflict with the output of dash tweeters and create some type of cancellation or something? I thought this was only possible on mid- and lower frequencies.

pls forgive my obvious ignorance... -GA

So my front stage (left and right anyway) are Alpine SPX PRO tweeters (or a replica, there's some debate over that on another forum, but I digress), and the Image Dynamics X69 mid-bass woofers. The X69's have no separate tweeter, they are woofers only. Not to over-complicate it, the X69 is one of the best 6x9 woofers made currently, which is why I went for them. If a coaxial speaker was in contention for being one of the best, I wouldn't have a problem going with them but most high-end speakers are separates. The land of high-end 6x9's is extremely sparse right now though. Since I'm using a tweeter in the factory location, I'm covering the entire range I need to have for the front stage. They are crossed as follows in the MS-8 processor: 75hz High-pass, and 3.15kHz low-pass. These are both steep 24dB/octave slopes. The tweeters I've picked out take over from there. I could play lower (and plan to), but I need to deaden the door much more to get the resonance issue under control.

Now to answer the question about coaxial 6x9's and whether there's anything wrong with them, no definitely there's not. But high end (meaning, extremely low distortion, extremely high output, and excellent frequency response) 6x9's, as I was saying, are very sparse. Audiofrog is probably the only other 6x9 I would even consider on my build. If you were to run coaxials in the door, it would be smart to disable the tweeter, or run a crossover point in the 2.5k-3.5kHz range and let a tweeter up high take over. I wouldn't recommend they both "work" at the same time at the same frequency, this can introduce cancellation/phase issues and specifically comb-filtering is what I was thinking as the worst-case scenario. It would manifest as a bunch of "combs" in the response, and sound pretty nasty. Steep slopes reduces driver interaction, which is why I try to go with them (within reason.)

Your thoughts aren't from ignorance, this is really good thinking/planning right here. I can show you an ignorant build. A guy on the Flex forums (my old car prior to upgrading to the Durango) was showing off his build. He's gone nuts just adding drivers! There's massive components in the pillars, a huge center channel (not a bad thing actually), woofers in the door, woofers in the front kick panels, tweeters all over the place. I tried explaining that comb-filtering is likely going to make this a nightmare, explained how either making arrays or simply paring down to less drivers would be smart, etc... But no, he just added drivers. There's enough equipment to build 3 cars, and not ONE processor in all that mess.

Anyway, let's go over those frequencies some. 1kHz definitely shouldn't be a nasty resonance point, but the lower registers (65-80hz) affects the door big-time. According to my plots/measurements, the front woofers (stock) are playing nearly full-range, and are really pushing themselves, and the door panels too much. That resonance issue you mentioned, that's what we're talking about. I have waterfall plots showing this resonance in the doors, showing how the panels are over-worked. If you want to see it happen for yourself (and understand it to make changes), download Room EQ Wizard (totally legit-free) and run a 1/8" phone jack to your aux-in on the head unit. Run the tone generator (sine-wave) slowly through the frequency band, and you'll be able to tell at what frequencies parts of the vehicle resonates, and note them. For instance, the spoiler will resonate at one point, the doors another, etc. Note them, deaden/seal/foam decouple (separate) the parts, and you can start to get rid of them.

Lanson · Aug 4, 2016

Potential game-changer product (maybe) on the way,

Audiofrog Gives Driver and Passengers an Audiophile Experience with New Multichannel Platform

Andy W. of Audiofrog is one of the people who used to work at Harman, who made the MS-8 possible.

Audiofrog is his own brand, MUCH higher-end.

MoparMike · Aug 4, 2016

Lanson said:
Potential game-changer product (maybe) on the way,

Audiofrog Gives Driver and Passengers an Audiophile Experience with New Multichannel Platform

Andy W. of Audiofrog is one of the people who used to work at Harman, who made the MS-8 possible.

Audiofrog is his own brand, MUCH higher-end.

Goals. Haha

Word on the box that he had in his car at CES was that it was in excess of $10k. Wonder what a production model that might not have integrated amplification would cost?

Lanson · Aug 4, 2016

MoparMike said:
Goals. Haha

Word on the box that he had in his car at CES was that it was in excess of $10k. Wonder what a production model that might not have integrated amplification would cost?

Yeah, he is in a video, dressed in a Luchador mask as "El ******", it is hilarious. Anyway, he's showing off his badass prototype 24 channel multi-processor. I don't need 24 channels, but I would LOVE to have a modern processor with that much brain in it. I'd certainly take time and make some A-pillar midrange setup, some 2-channel center, etc if I got a processor that could handle it.

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All-out audio build (Lanson's '15 RT)

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